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<blockquote data-quote="Jemal" data-source="post: 6108442" data-attributes="member: 9026"><p>OK so now I'm confused, are they alternate effects of Strength or not? First time I mentioned it you said "the only one that's an AE is his Intimidation bump. The rest are stand-alone powers."</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's to prevent people from using TK to deliver touch attacks or simulate other powers without an alternate effect. While we're quoting him: "Since Move Object works on things at a distance by definition, it cannot generally be reduced to close ranged. At the GM's Discrection, A Close Ranged Move Object effect may represent "tactile telekinesis" or a supernatural influence over objects you are able to touch, but such thing are better represented by the Enhanced Strength effect" I think that has more direct bearing on the question at hand, and is also 100% Steve.</p><p></p><p>It just allows you to make the initial attack as ranged rather than touch. If you're using it as a Grab Attack, you would have to start it with a ranged attack, just as when using strength you make a close attack, and then the grab proceeds as normal. IF not there's no grab, either with MO OR Strength.</p><p>Of note: lifting an object with Strength doesn't require a grab either, does that mean you could do Grab-based strength limited to lifting? Same concept, Move Object is basically just ranged strength.</p><p>EX: Lifting a 'platform' you're on and throwing it to simulate flight : You couldn't do this with STR either.</p><p></p><p> I've never been fond of people trying to explain Comic-book physics with real world physics. It seems to miss the point of comics.. it's not SUPPOSED to be real, it's supposed to be COOL.</p><p></p><p></p><p> OK, this is something I argue with people over a LOT. I'm often called a power-gaming, rules lawyering twink/munchkin because I like powerful/optimized characters. This is because not a lot of people realize there's a difference between optimization and exploiting/cheese. I CAN get any and every power I want. But a lot of it is incredibly cheesy. Using a flaw that ISN'T a flaw is exploiting loopholes. </p><p>The question is: What actual limitation does 'grab based' apply to a power that's already close-ranged and usable only for lifting? Can you really think of enough instances where it would matter enough to justify -1/rank, or is it something that will only come up in rare circumstances if at all? If it's the latter, then it's a complication.</p><p></p><p>[sblock=Example: How to get a lifting STR score of 84 for 1 point.. and not as an alternate effect.]</p><p>Move Object 84: Limited to Lifting, Limit:Only usable on objects, Concentration, Close-ranged, Grab-based, Distracting(You'll almost never use it in combat anyways), Feedback(If my invisible un-interactable force that's moving stuff is damaged so am I), Diminished Range 3 (It started as a ranged effect), Innacurate X10: 1 pp/6 ranks-13 = 1pp</p><p></p><p>Also, technically I could've taken the Innaccurate up to 100 (Flat flaws may be applied up to the rank of the power, but I kept it at the campaign PL instead.), which would give a -200 to the attack roll.. an attack roll which you'll never have to make. I also could've put in about a dozen other Limits that by themselves are perfectly good limits, but because of the way this power already works, would have had little to no impact on it.[/sblock]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> If Optimization was his point in designing that batman he would have done it in the regular amount of points rather than just dumping extra points. Giving someone extra free power is the exact opposite of optimization. And as I've said, I heartily agree that Optimization is Key, but there's a very fine line between Optimization and.. the other thing..</p><p></p><p></p><p>If you've studied history you know Papal Canon doesn't even live up to the name. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>I used to be a big poster on the Wizco Character Optimization boards. My RL Friends and I took a few swings at Pun Pun, had him dead a couple times for a day or more before they figured out how to make him immune to that particular attack. (Anybody who doesn't know Pun Pun, be grateful and just move on!), but one of my favourite posts back there was the commandments of Practical Optimization. Not the regular commandments of optimization, 'thou shalt not loose caster level' and such.. those are mostly wrong (actually, my most powerful characters have broken every one of THOSE rules, but none of THESE rules), but these make sense.</p><p><a href="http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860738/The_Ten_Commandments_of_Practical_Optimization" target="_blank">http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860738/The_Ten_Commandments_of_Practical_Optimization</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jemal, post: 6108442, member: 9026"] OK so now I'm confused, are they alternate effects of Strength or not? First time I mentioned it you said "the only one that's an AE is his Intimidation bump. The rest are stand-alone powers." That's to prevent people from using TK to deliver touch attacks or simulate other powers without an alternate effect. While we're quoting him: "Since Move Object works on things at a distance by definition, it cannot generally be reduced to close ranged. At the GM's Discrection, A Close Ranged Move Object effect may represent "tactile telekinesis" or a supernatural influence over objects you are able to touch, but such thing are better represented by the Enhanced Strength effect" I think that has more direct bearing on the question at hand, and is also 100% Steve. It just allows you to make the initial attack as ranged rather than touch. If you're using it as a Grab Attack, you would have to start it with a ranged attack, just as when using strength you make a close attack, and then the grab proceeds as normal. IF not there's no grab, either with MO OR Strength. Of note: lifting an object with Strength doesn't require a grab either, does that mean you could do Grab-based strength limited to lifting? Same concept, Move Object is basically just ranged strength. EX: Lifting a 'platform' you're on and throwing it to simulate flight : You couldn't do this with STR either. I've never been fond of people trying to explain Comic-book physics with real world physics. It seems to miss the point of comics.. it's not SUPPOSED to be real, it's supposed to be COOL. OK, this is something I argue with people over a LOT. I'm often called a power-gaming, rules lawyering twink/munchkin because I like powerful/optimized characters. This is because not a lot of people realize there's a difference between optimization and exploiting/cheese. I CAN get any and every power I want. But a lot of it is incredibly cheesy. Using a flaw that ISN'T a flaw is exploiting loopholes. The question is: What actual limitation does 'grab based' apply to a power that's already close-ranged and usable only for lifting? Can you really think of enough instances where it would matter enough to justify -1/rank, or is it something that will only come up in rare circumstances if at all? If it's the latter, then it's a complication. [sblock=Example: How to get a lifting STR score of 84 for 1 point.. and not as an alternate effect.] Move Object 84: Limited to Lifting, Limit:Only usable on objects, Concentration, Close-ranged, Grab-based, Distracting(You'll almost never use it in combat anyways), Feedback(If my invisible un-interactable force that's moving stuff is damaged so am I), Diminished Range 3 (It started as a ranged effect), Innacurate X10: 1 pp/6 ranks-13 = 1pp Also, technically I could've taken the Innaccurate up to 100 (Flat flaws may be applied up to the rank of the power, but I kept it at the campaign PL instead.), which would give a -200 to the attack roll.. an attack roll which you'll never have to make. I also could've put in about a dozen other Limits that by themselves are perfectly good limits, but because of the way this power already works, would have had little to no impact on it.[/sblock] If Optimization was his point in designing that batman he would have done it in the regular amount of points rather than just dumping extra points. Giving someone extra free power is the exact opposite of optimization. And as I've said, I heartily agree that Optimization is Key, but there's a very fine line between Optimization and.. the other thing.. If you've studied history you know Papal Canon doesn't even live up to the name. ;) I used to be a big poster on the Wizco Character Optimization boards. My RL Friends and I took a few swings at Pun Pun, had him dead a couple times for a day or more before they figured out how to make him immune to that particular attack. (Anybody who doesn't know Pun Pun, be grateful and just move on!), but one of my favourite posts back there was the commandments of Practical Optimization. Not the regular commandments of optimization, 'thou shalt not loose caster level' and such.. those are mostly wrong (actually, my most powerful characters have broken every one of THOSE rules, but none of THESE rules), but these make sense. [url]http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860738/The_Ten_Commandments_of_Practical_Optimization[/url] [/QUOTE]
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