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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6037322" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>I think it's about setting realistic expectations (ie: making good on your promises). It's not that everyone wants to be 20th level, it's just that if they aren't going to make it that high anyway, they probably shouldn't delay their gratification until that point. You don't need to cram 20-30 levels into 3 months of gameplay, you just need to be realistic about what you want to do in those 3 months. If your game is essentially a 3-level or 5-level game, you want to make sure there's change within that scope, but it needn't be as dramatic. You don't need to promise them plane-shaking magic, you just need to deliver on what you DO promise them (which might be Fireball)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Most games loose steam. I think that's something that anyone starting up a D&D game needs to be well aware of from the outset. They CAN last longer, but if they do it has nothing to do with how episodic or epic the campaign is, it has much more to do with the real lives of the people involved. If those lives are fairly stable, the game may be, too. But as I mentioned, even those groups that are stable often re-start campaigns or characters before exploring all the levels. The stable groups who get to see all of D&D's level arcs on anything like a regular basis are rare individuals. I'm sure they're out there, but I'm also pretty confident that they're exceptional.</p><p></p><p>I'm not necessarily arguing for an episodic structure, I'm just saying that the duration should fit the expectations of the group. If you've got 2 years to play with a consistent party, by all means, plan your 240-hour epic. But you should be up-front about what the group can expect to achieve in a given chunk of time. Don't imply someone could reach level 18, and then slow down XP so that they never actually get there. Just say they'll only reach level 10, and it'll take them 2 years to do it, and then they can make the logical choice to be effective now or later. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is risky. The longer your game takes, the more chances there are for a broken promise: somebody changes jobs, somebody moves, somebody has a kid...</p><p></p><p>If the intention is never to even reach the high levels, that should be stated, too. That's part of setting the correct expectations -- about promising what you can actually deliver. When you're setting up the game, let folks figure out how many levels they'll get, and at what rate, to let them make an informed decision about what characters they'll play. The point is to be up-front about the length of your game, rather than a "start at level X and go until we stop" kind of model, which leaves the higher levels as promises broken.</p><p></p><p>I imagine you can get a lot of depth from a 1-20 or 1-30 game. I don't imagine many people ever get to actually SEE that depth. So it's smarter to take your own games, and make sure that however deep you can go logistically, that the group is prepared for that depth. If you've got a stable group that can stick around for 1-3 years or more, go for the depth.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think that part of the cause of this problem is that high level play is so often only theoretical. It's a promise that only rarely has to be delivered on. I can promise you the moon, but if you can't wait until you're 500 years old, I'll never have to actually deliver on it. </p><p></p><p>20 levels doesn't sound like a lot until you break it down into real-world time scales and realize what the game is actually asking you to do. How long have you gone 2 years without a major life change of some sort? How long do you want to be playing the same Level 7 Dwarf Fighter? How likely are you to ever see the end of this complex intrigue plot?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think it's the typical group that makes it past 10 levels. I'm not convinced that it's a typical group that makes it past 5 levels! High level play might turn off some of those that get to see it, but the first problem is planning for the amount of levels people will actually see in play. Whatever spread that is should contain some element of required self-discipline.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's only a solution to the problem of "OMG HIGH LEVELS COMING TOO FAST!"</p><p></p><p>Which I think is a much rarer problem than "Hey, guys, won't be able to come to D&D tonight again, little Susie's got a soccer game," or "My mom's in town for the High Holy Days, I'm gonna have to take a pass for the next few weeks." or "Are we still doing this tonight? Because if not, I've got a girlfriend to make out with while watching <em>Breaking Bad</em>."</p><p></p><p>Not that unbalanced high levels really get a pass. Just that high-level powers are a motivator to keep playing and advancing and striving, and if you never actually deliver on them, you're removing that motivation. You become untrustworthy. </p><p></p><p>There can be (and are) other motivations to keep playing. Prolly talk about some of those in this column, too. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6037322, member: 2067"] I think it's about setting realistic expectations (ie: making good on your promises). It's not that everyone wants to be 20th level, it's just that if they aren't going to make it that high anyway, they probably shouldn't delay their gratification until that point. You don't need to cram 20-30 levels into 3 months of gameplay, you just need to be realistic about what you want to do in those 3 months. If your game is essentially a 3-level or 5-level game, you want to make sure there's change within that scope, but it needn't be as dramatic. You don't need to promise them plane-shaking magic, you just need to deliver on what you DO promise them (which might be Fireball) Most games loose steam. I think that's something that anyone starting up a D&D game needs to be well aware of from the outset. They CAN last longer, but if they do it has nothing to do with how episodic or epic the campaign is, it has much more to do with the real lives of the people involved. If those lives are fairly stable, the game may be, too. But as I mentioned, even those groups that are stable often re-start campaigns or characters before exploring all the levels. The stable groups who get to see all of D&D's level arcs on anything like a regular basis are rare individuals. I'm sure they're out there, but I'm also pretty confident that they're exceptional. I'm not necessarily arguing for an episodic structure, I'm just saying that the duration should fit the expectations of the group. If you've got 2 years to play with a consistent party, by all means, plan your 240-hour epic. But you should be up-front about what the group can expect to achieve in a given chunk of time. Don't imply someone could reach level 18, and then slow down XP so that they never actually get there. Just say they'll only reach level 10, and it'll take them 2 years to do it, and then they can make the logical choice to be effective now or later. Which is risky. The longer your game takes, the more chances there are for a broken promise: somebody changes jobs, somebody moves, somebody has a kid... If the intention is never to even reach the high levels, that should be stated, too. That's part of setting the correct expectations -- about promising what you can actually deliver. When you're setting up the game, let folks figure out how many levels they'll get, and at what rate, to let them make an informed decision about what characters they'll play. The point is to be up-front about the length of your game, rather than a "start at level X and go until we stop" kind of model, which leaves the higher levels as promises broken. I imagine you can get a lot of depth from a 1-20 or 1-30 game. I don't imagine many people ever get to actually SEE that depth. So it's smarter to take your own games, and make sure that however deep you can go logistically, that the group is prepared for that depth. If you've got a stable group that can stick around for 1-3 years or more, go for the depth. I think that part of the cause of this problem is that high level play is so often only theoretical. It's a promise that only rarely has to be delivered on. I can promise you the moon, but if you can't wait until you're 500 years old, I'll never have to actually deliver on it. 20 levels doesn't sound like a lot until you break it down into real-world time scales and realize what the game is actually asking you to do. How long have you gone 2 years without a major life change of some sort? How long do you want to be playing the same Level 7 Dwarf Fighter? How likely are you to ever see the end of this complex intrigue plot? I don't think it's the typical group that makes it past 10 levels. I'm not convinced that it's a typical group that makes it past 5 levels! High level play might turn off some of those that get to see it, but the first problem is planning for the amount of levels people will actually see in play. Whatever spread that is should contain some element of required self-discipline. That's only a solution to the problem of "OMG HIGH LEVELS COMING TOO FAST!" Which I think is a much rarer problem than "Hey, guys, won't be able to come to D&D tonight again, little Susie's got a soccer game," or "My mom's in town for the High Holy Days, I'm gonna have to take a pass for the next few weeks." or "Are we still doing this tonight? Because if not, I've got a girlfriend to make out with while watching [I]Breaking Bad[/I]." Not that unbalanced high levels really get a pass. Just that high-level powers are a motivator to keep playing and advancing and striving, and if you never actually deliver on them, you're removing that motivation. You become untrustworthy. There can be (and are) other motivations to keep playing. Prolly talk about some of those in this column, too. :) [/QUOTE]
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