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<blockquote data-quote="FrozenNorth" data-source="post: 7948198" data-attributes="member: 7020832"><p>I found my math post!</p><p>*****</p><p>This is a good point and deserved to be mathed out.</p><p></p><p>My level 1 elf wizard is AC 15 (AC 16 if he uses one of his 4 1st level spells for mage armor) and has 13 hp. A 1st level champion (without a shield, since we are comparing like-to-like) has an AC 18 and 18 or 19 hp.</p><p></p><p>Suppose a standard orc strides past the champion to get to me. He is armed with an orc necksplitter, for a +7 to hit which does 1d8+4 damage. He gets 2 attacks (since he used one action to reach me).</p><p></p><p><u>First attack: </u></p><p></p><p><strong>For the wizard</strong>: 40% chance miss, 50% hit for an average of 8.5 dmg, 10% chance crit for an average of 17 dmg. If the orc rolls a crit, I am unconscious unless he rolls a 1 or a 2 damage (so 75% chance I fall unconscious on a crit).</p><p></p><p><strong>For the champion</strong>: 50% chance miss, 45% chance hit, 5% chance crit. If the orc rolls a crit, the champion has an even chance not to fall unconscious.</p><p></p><p>If both the wizard and the champion survive the first attack, the orc gets a <u>second attack</u> at -5.</p><p></p><p><strong>For the wizard</strong>: 65% chance miss, 30% chance hit, 5% chance crit. If the orc hit on the first attack or crits on either attack, the wizard is unconscious.</p><p></p><p><strong>For the champion</strong>: 75% chance miss, 20% chance hit, 5% chance crit. The champion is less likely to be crit, and has a better chance of surviving the crit.</p><p></p><p>If we add a shield, the comparison is even more favourable to the champion, as his shield gives him a +2 AC whereas my shield spell gives me a +1.</p><p></p><p>Note that this isn't even necessarily a problem! I am OK with wizards being a high-risk high-reward playstyle. The problem is that Pathfinder 2 seems to be supporting a high-risk, low-reward playstyle for wizards: few levelled spells, Vancian casting, spells which have been nerfed in comparison to 5e and Pathfinder, and cantrips that do less damage than if I had maxed Dex instead of Int and used a bow.</p><p></p><p>For instance: Shocking Grasp is a touch spell so it should be compared melee damage. Unless the target is wearing metal armor, it does on average 13 dmg (2d12). Standard melee damage for a greatsword (assuming Str 18 but not class feats or expert training) is 10.5 (1d12 +4). 13 damage is higher than 10.5, but I used 25% of my daily resources and because of my low hp and AC, I am putting myself at considerably greater risk. </p><p>****</p><p>Edit: In doing the greatsword calculation, I forgot that the greatsword melee attack takes a single action. If we are comparing like-to-like, there should be a 2nd greatsword attack (at a -5) that brings greatsword DPS equal to (or greater than) Shocking Grasp.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FrozenNorth, post: 7948198, member: 7020832"] I found my math post! ***** This is a good point and deserved to be mathed out. My level 1 elf wizard is AC 15 (AC 16 if he uses one of his 4 1st level spells for mage armor) and has 13 hp. A 1st level champion (without a shield, since we are comparing like-to-like) has an AC 18 and 18 or 19 hp. Suppose a standard orc strides past the champion to get to me. He is armed with an orc necksplitter, for a +7 to hit which does 1d8+4 damage. He gets 2 attacks (since he used one action to reach me). [U]First attack: [/U] [B]For the wizard[/B]: 40% chance miss, 50% hit for an average of 8.5 dmg, 10% chance crit for an average of 17 dmg. If the orc rolls a crit, I am unconscious unless he rolls a 1 or a 2 damage (so 75% chance I fall unconscious on a crit). [B]For the champion[/B]: 50% chance miss, 45% chance hit, 5% chance crit. If the orc rolls a crit, the champion has an even chance not to fall unconscious. If both the wizard and the champion survive the first attack, the orc gets a [U]second attack[/U] at -5. [B]For the wizard[/B]: 65% chance miss, 30% chance hit, 5% chance crit. If the orc hit on the first attack or crits on either attack, the wizard is unconscious. [B]For the champion[/B]: 75% chance miss, 20% chance hit, 5% chance crit. The champion is less likely to be crit, and has a better chance of surviving the crit. If we add a shield, the comparison is even more favourable to the champion, as his shield gives him a +2 AC whereas my shield spell gives me a +1. Note that this isn't even necessarily a problem! I am OK with wizards being a high-risk high-reward playstyle. The problem is that Pathfinder 2 seems to be supporting a high-risk, low-reward playstyle for wizards: few levelled spells, Vancian casting, spells which have been nerfed in comparison to 5e and Pathfinder, and cantrips that do less damage than if I had maxed Dex instead of Int and used a bow. For instance: Shocking Grasp is a touch spell so it should be compared melee damage. Unless the target is wearing metal armor, it does on average 13 dmg (2d12). Standard melee damage for a greatsword (assuming Str 18 but not class feats or expert training) is 10.5 (1d12 +4). 13 damage is higher than 10.5, but I used 25% of my daily resources and because of my low hp and AC, I am putting myself at considerably greater risk. **** Edit: In doing the greatsword calculation, I forgot that the greatsword melee attack takes a single action. If we are comparing like-to-like, there should be a 2nd greatsword attack (at a -5) that brings greatsword DPS equal to (or greater than) Shocking Grasp. [/QUOTE]
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