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Martials should just get free feats
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8996250" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p><strong>Which does nothing for all the Fighters who DON'T cast spells.</strong></p><p></p><p>That's the thing you seem to be not getting here. The Fighter, at is baseline, is too weak. The Fighter, at its baseline, needs to not be that weak. Period.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Weapon proficiency is irrelevant.</p><p>Fighting style is <em>almost</em> irrelevant because Bladesinger gets a special Extra Attack that replaces one attack with a scaling cantrip.</p><p>I would call armor proficiency also irrelevant.</p><p>Fighter Extra Attack is taken care of by the aforementioned cantrip.</p><p>Second Wind has nothing to do with damage.</p><p>Indomitable has nothing to do with damage.</p><p>And extra ASIs are exactly what I'm saying the Fighter should get EVEN MORE of.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Nope. Not even close.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Then prove it. Show where you have documented evidence that people explicitly prefer <em>the way the Fighter is designed</em> over <em>the way the Wizard is designed</em>.</p><p></p><p>But you won't be able to, because such proof does not exist. All you have is that Fighters are commonly played. That has literally, actually, NOTHING to do with the way the class is designed, because every single edition has had the Fighter as the most popular class. Period. Even 3e, where essentially everyone--<em>even Paizo!</em>--agreed that the Fighter was too weak and needed a boost. (They just....also boosted the Wizard, and the boost they gave to the Fighter was really weak. Meaning the gap remained.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Which is 100% completely irrelevant to whether they are actually comparable choices.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Then we must take power away from the Wizard, OR give things <em>like feats</em> to the Fighter. Those are the only options which can resolve this problem without outright rewriting the classes.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Why? Why should a subclass somehow make you a specialist? It's literally an add-on! It should NEVER be as good as taking a whole second class, not even close!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Genuine question:</p><p><em>Other than</em> aping the Fighter, meaning excluding things like Hexblade and Bladesinger, do any subclasses actually work this way in 5e? Is there even <em>one</em> subclass that makes you nearly as good a spellcaster as a Wizard? Is there even <em>one</em> subclass that makes you as good at healing and support as a Cleric? Even <em>one</em> that makes you comparable to a Bard's illusions and buffs and such?</p><p></p><p>Because it sounds, to me, like you are wanting to rewrite 5e in order to make subclass essentially as strong as class, simply because <em>one class</em>--Fighter--can get eclipsed by the subclasses of other classes.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Weapon proficiencies are irrelevant. The only weapons that matter are rapier (1d8, finesse), greatsword (2d6, 2H), greataxe (1d12, 2H), and glaive/halberd (1d10, polearm.) Ranged weapons are irrelevant because of ranged spell attack cantrips (<em>fire bolt</em> being the best choice.) Bladesinging <em>gives</em> you rapier prof, which is all you need.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You should not ever assume magic items for only one side. That's clearly biased.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Then show the math.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I consider this neither necessary nor relevant. Especially because there's no guarantee the Fighter is getting to attack on the first turn either.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, because the point was to compare the whole (baseline) Fighter class to JUST cantrips+Bladesinger. Because that alone--cantrips+Bladesinger--gives you a HUGE amount of the Fighter class.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The question is irrelevant.</p><p></p><p></p><p><em>Toll the dead</em>. The hit points are irrelevant.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I was using <em>toll the dead</em>, which is a saving throw and thus cannot crit.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not four. It's two.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Flatly disagree.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not. It's literally just "damage (before hit/saving throws) for <em>toll the dead</em> + one melee attack" vs "damage with a Greatsword and GWF."</p><p></p><p>I specifically calculated it this way because it shows the "fallback" options. Meaning, this is the <em>absolute floor</em>. With the possible exception of only a handful of rounds per day, the Bladesinger is doing <em>nothing less than</em> 75% of the raw, before-accuracy damage a baseline Fighter is doing--and I assumed a Fighter with Great Weapon Fighting and a greatsword.</p><p></p><p>Battle Master, probably the best damage option for a Fighter (because Eldritch Knight scales so poorly), is only getting +6d10 per rest. Few groups take more than two short rests per day, so that's 18d10. Even if we're generous and assume a third of those get attached to crits (since they get applied after the fact), that's still only 24d10. A max-level Wizard has six 5th level spell slots per day (depending on their usage of Arcane Recovery; they can't recover four because they don't have four 5th level slots.) Not even considering any of their other spells, just those six. <em>Synaptic static</em> is 8d6 psychic (Int save for half), <em>cone of cold</em> is an AoE 8d8 cold (Con save for half), <em>dawn</em> is a repeatable 4d10 radiant (Con save for half.) Assume half of saving throws succeed (a pretty poor showing on the Wizard's part, but easy math), and <em>dawn</em> only attempts to hit two targets each time and never lasts more than one round (so in total two targets save, two targets fail.) That's 1.5×(28+36+2×22) = 162 expected damage. 24d10 is 132 expected damage--again, <em>allowing</em> that a full third of the time, the Battle Master applies Superiority Dice to crits so they pull double duty. Just using your 5th level spells and Arcane Recovery, <em>without any other expenditure</em>, exceeds the bonus damage of the Battle Master. <em>One</em> class feature lets you exceed an entire subclass!</p><p></p><p>Dedicate all your 4th level slots to <em>false life</em>, and all your 1st-level slots to something defensive and useful (e.g. <em>shield</em>.) Make <em>silvery barbs</em> your 1st-level Spell Mastery pick, and your choice of defensive spell for 2nd level: <em>blur, invisibility,</em> or <em>misty step</em> are all great options, or you can take <em>shadow blade</em> to improve your cantrip+attack damage even further, becoming 4d12+2d8+10 (45 average.)</p><p></p><p>This leaves you with two 6th, two 7th, one 8th, and one 9th level spell free to do <em>whatever you want</em>, as well as all of your 2nd and 3rd level spells. In other words, at least in terms of slot levels, the majority of slot-based magic you'll use during the day: 3×2+3×3+2×6+2×7+8+9 = 58 slot-levels' worth of spells, out of the total 58+5+4×4+6×5 = 109. 58/109 = 53%.</p><p></p><p>Of course, Action Surge hasn't been factored in. Ignoring accuracy, that adds about 320 extra damage on the Fighter's side (as few groups take more than two short rests per day and Action Surge is 2/rest at high level.) That, I admit, is more difficult to match, but it <em>definitely</em> doesn't require that you expend all of the aforementioned unspent spell slots on damage. And I'm heavily lowballing the Wizard's damage, while assuming the Battle Master <em>always hits</em>. I hope you'll agree that that's heavily biased in the Fighter's favor.</p><p></p><p>Edit: Actually, I messed up on the Wizard math--<em>cone of cold</em> is an AoE spell, so it should also be hitting two targets (assuming one saves, one fails). So those six spell slots are <em>actually</em> doing 1.5×(28+2×36+2×22) = 216 damage. Meaning the entire Battle Master contribution falls 84 points short, <em>even if</em> we assume a third of her Superiority Dice get double-rolled because they're used on crits, and assuming a Wizard who uses their AoE spells exceedingly poorly. The Wizard now only needs to come up with ~240 extra damage from spells to eclipse the Fighter--and that certainly won't take anywhere near the number of spell slots they have available. It only gets worse if we consider earlier levels: 17-19, Fighter only has 3 attacks per action, not 4, while the Wizard has maximum scaling on their cantrips and 9th level spells; 16 and below, Fighter only has half as many Action Surges per day, <em>drastically</em> cutting her damage output. High level Fighter is <em>playing catch-up</em>, not lapping!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8996250, member: 6790260"] [B]Which does nothing for all the Fighters who DON'T cast spells.[/B] That's the thing you seem to be not getting here. The Fighter, at is baseline, is too weak. The Fighter, at its baseline, needs to not be that weak. Period. Weapon proficiency is irrelevant. Fighting style is [I]almost[/I] irrelevant because Bladesinger gets a special Extra Attack that replaces one attack with a scaling cantrip. I would call armor proficiency also irrelevant. Fighter Extra Attack is taken care of by the aforementioned cantrip. Second Wind has nothing to do with damage. Indomitable has nothing to do with damage. And extra ASIs are exactly what I'm saying the Fighter should get EVEN MORE of. Nope. Not even close. Then prove it. Show where you have documented evidence that people explicitly prefer [I]the way the Fighter is designed[/I] over [I]the way the Wizard is designed[/I]. But you won't be able to, because such proof does not exist. All you have is that Fighters are commonly played. That has literally, actually, NOTHING to do with the way the class is designed, because every single edition has had the Fighter as the most popular class. Period. Even 3e, where essentially everyone--[I]even Paizo![/I]--agreed that the Fighter was too weak and needed a boost. (They just....also boosted the Wizard, and the boost they gave to the Fighter was really weak. Meaning the gap remained.) Which is 100% completely irrelevant to whether they are actually comparable choices. Then we must take power away from the Wizard, OR give things [I]like feats[/I] to the Fighter. Those are the only options which can resolve this problem without outright rewriting the classes. Why? Why should a subclass somehow make you a specialist? It's literally an add-on! It should NEVER be as good as taking a whole second class, not even close! Genuine question: [I]Other than[/I] aping the Fighter, meaning excluding things like Hexblade and Bladesinger, do any subclasses actually work this way in 5e? Is there even [I]one[/I] subclass that makes you nearly as good a spellcaster as a Wizard? Is there even [I]one[/I] subclass that makes you as good at healing and support as a Cleric? Even [I]one[/I] that makes you comparable to a Bard's illusions and buffs and such? Because it sounds, to me, like you are wanting to rewrite 5e in order to make subclass essentially as strong as class, simply because [I]one class[/I]--Fighter--can get eclipsed by the subclasses of other classes. Weapon proficiencies are irrelevant. The only weapons that matter are rapier (1d8, finesse), greatsword (2d6, 2H), greataxe (1d12, 2H), and glaive/halberd (1d10, polearm.) Ranged weapons are irrelevant because of ranged spell attack cantrips ([I]fire bolt[/I] being the best choice.) Bladesinging [I]gives[/I] you rapier prof, which is all you need. You should not ever assume magic items for only one side. That's clearly biased. Then show the math. I consider this neither necessary nor relevant. Especially because there's no guarantee the Fighter is getting to attack on the first turn either. No, because the point was to compare the whole (baseline) Fighter class to JUST cantrips+Bladesinger. Because that alone--cantrips+Bladesinger--gives you a HUGE amount of the Fighter class. The question is irrelevant. [I]Toll the dead[/I]. The hit points are irrelevant. I was using [I]toll the dead[/I], which is a saving throw and thus cannot crit. It's not four. It's two. Flatly disagree. It's not. It's literally just "damage (before hit/saving throws) for [I]toll the dead[/I] + one melee attack" vs "damage with a Greatsword and GWF." I specifically calculated it this way because it shows the "fallback" options. Meaning, this is the [I]absolute floor[/I]. With the possible exception of only a handful of rounds per day, the Bladesinger is doing [I]nothing less than[/I] 75% of the raw, before-accuracy damage a baseline Fighter is doing--and I assumed a Fighter with Great Weapon Fighting and a greatsword. Battle Master, probably the best damage option for a Fighter (because Eldritch Knight scales so poorly), is only getting +6d10 per rest. Few groups take more than two short rests per day, so that's 18d10. Even if we're generous and assume a third of those get attached to crits (since they get applied after the fact), that's still only 24d10. A max-level Wizard has six 5th level spell slots per day (depending on their usage of Arcane Recovery; they can't recover four because they don't have four 5th level slots.) Not even considering any of their other spells, just those six. [I]Synaptic static[/I] is 8d6 psychic (Int save for half), [I]cone of cold[/I] is an AoE 8d8 cold (Con save for half), [I]dawn[/I] is a repeatable 4d10 radiant (Con save for half.) Assume half of saving throws succeed (a pretty poor showing on the Wizard's part, but easy math), and [I]dawn[/I] only attempts to hit two targets each time and never lasts more than one round (so in total two targets save, two targets fail.) That's 1.5×(28+36+2×22) = 162 expected damage. 24d10 is 132 expected damage--again, [I]allowing[/I] that a full third of the time, the Battle Master applies Superiority Dice to crits so they pull double duty. Just using your 5th level spells and Arcane Recovery, [I]without any other expenditure[/I], exceeds the bonus damage of the Battle Master. [I]One[/I] class feature lets you exceed an entire subclass! Dedicate all your 4th level slots to [I]false life[/I], and all your 1st-level slots to something defensive and useful (e.g. [I]shield[/I].) Make [I]silvery barbs[/I] your 1st-level Spell Mastery pick, and your choice of defensive spell for 2nd level: [I]blur, invisibility,[/I] or [I]misty step[/I] are all great options, or you can take [I]shadow blade[/I] to improve your cantrip+attack damage even further, becoming 4d12+2d8+10 (45 average.) This leaves you with two 6th, two 7th, one 8th, and one 9th level spell free to do [I]whatever you want[/I], as well as all of your 2nd and 3rd level spells. In other words, at least in terms of slot levels, the majority of slot-based magic you'll use during the day: 3×2+3×3+2×6+2×7+8+9 = 58 slot-levels' worth of spells, out of the total 58+5+4×4+6×5 = 109. 58/109 = 53%. Of course, Action Surge hasn't been factored in. Ignoring accuracy, that adds about 320 extra damage on the Fighter's side (as few groups take more than two short rests per day and Action Surge is 2/rest at high level.) That, I admit, is more difficult to match, but it [I]definitely[/I] doesn't require that you expend all of the aforementioned unspent spell slots on damage. And I'm heavily lowballing the Wizard's damage, while assuming the Battle Master [I]always hits[/I]. I hope you'll agree that that's heavily biased in the Fighter's favor. Edit: Actually, I messed up on the Wizard math--[I]cone of cold[/I] is an AoE spell, so it should also be hitting two targets (assuming one saves, one fails). So those six spell slots are [I]actually[/I] doing 1.5×(28+2×36+2×22) = 216 damage. Meaning the entire Battle Master contribution falls 84 points short, [I]even if[/I] we assume a third of her Superiority Dice get double-rolled because they're used on crits, and assuming a Wizard who uses their AoE spells exceedingly poorly. The Wizard now only needs to come up with ~240 extra damage from spells to eclipse the Fighter--and that certainly won't take anywhere near the number of spell slots they have available. It only gets worse if we consider earlier levels: 17-19, Fighter only has 3 attacks per action, not 4, while the Wizard has maximum scaling on their cantrips and 9th level spells; 16 and below, Fighter only has half as many Action Surges per day, [I]drastically[/I] cutting her damage output. High level Fighter is [I]playing catch-up[/I], not lapping! [/QUOTE]
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