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Martials should just get free feats
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8997255" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I don't think that anyone thinks that balance is as flat out terrible as it was in 3.X - but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be better. I'm going to make the following assertions that I think are all hard to argue with. </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Class balance is situational and determined by the campaign as much as it is anything.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Classes are also balanced differently at different levels; for example the combat balance between a fighter and a ranger is very different at level 10 and level 11 when the third attack kicks in for the fighter.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The wizard scales harder than the fighter and casters scale harder than non-casters in general</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The value of strength and athletics goes down over time as spells like breathe water, water walking, flight, and polymorph make climbing, jumping, and swimming easier to bypass - and strength and athletics are all fighter/barbarian stuff.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">At first level the wizard is strictly but only slightly superior to a fighter out of combat; they get the same sized stat array, and the same number of skills, but the wizard gets cantrips and can use levelled spells but are unlikely to have some to spare.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Out of combat the gap only increases with level as the wizard gets more and higher levelled spells and hence more flexibility</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">At first level the fighter is much stronger than the wizard in combat. Much tougher, much harder hitting, and just as mobile</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A high level wizard has more mobility, can use low level spells for defence, and has better combat spells. The fighter is doing single target hit point damage. The wizard scales better at combat.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Therefore there will be <em>some level</em> at which the wizard catches the fighter in terms of combat ability<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Personal observational experience says probably by level 7, certainly by level 9 (OK, so this one is just personal observation)</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">By D&D Beyond statistics 90% of games end by level 10 - which is only slightly after the endgame kicks in.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">(On preview): The magic items in by the book 5e are if anything weighted <em>against</em> the fighter in 5e; an AC 26 fighter would RAW require a +3 Shield (Very Rare) and +3 Plate Armour (Legendary). Admittedly neither of these require attunement.</li> </ul><p>There are also some points about the fighter in specific:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fighter gains less from their feat level at levels 4 and 8 than the wizard; the wizard also advances their spellcasting. (Suggested fix: Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues (and probably Monks) get a free trained skill every time they get a feat)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fighter level 9 ability (Indomitable) for a 1/day reroll is just very weak. And, worse, it's weak at a point when the fighter is already falling behind and needs something good. (Suggested Fix: Advantage on all saving throws - to bring back the classic fighter being spell resistant and to compete with the paladin and later monks)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fighter's class abilities from levels 12-19 are a complete blasted wasteland of repeats of abilities and options that simply weren't good enough for them to pick at lower levels.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There are a <em>few</em> fighter builds where there's genuine synergy between two combat feats (Xbow expert/Sharpshooter and Polearm Master/Sentinel stop-and-flail come to mind) so the fourth feat/ASI is more valuable than it would have been earlier. Level 12 sometimes avoids this problem for fighters; level 14 doesn't.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Suggested fix: Fighters get an extra subclass in Tier 3 and 4 to represent how they go beyond normal limits. Or cap the game at level 11.</li> </ul></li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8997255, member: 87792"] I don't think that anyone thinks that balance is as flat out terrible as it was in 3.X - but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be better. I'm going to make the following assertions that I think are all hard to argue with. [LIST] [*]Class balance is situational and determined by the campaign as much as it is anything. [*]Classes are also balanced differently at different levels; for example the combat balance between a fighter and a ranger is very different at level 10 and level 11 when the third attack kicks in for the fighter. [*]The wizard scales harder than the fighter and casters scale harder than non-casters in general [*]The value of strength and athletics goes down over time as spells like breathe water, water walking, flight, and polymorph make climbing, jumping, and swimming easier to bypass - and strength and athletics are all fighter/barbarian stuff. [*]At first level the wizard is strictly but only slightly superior to a fighter out of combat; they get the same sized stat array, and the same number of skills, but the wizard gets cantrips and can use levelled spells but are unlikely to have some to spare. [*]Out of combat the gap only increases with level as the wizard gets more and higher levelled spells and hence more flexibility [*]At first level the fighter is much stronger than the wizard in combat. Much tougher, much harder hitting, and just as mobile [*]A high level wizard has more mobility, can use low level spells for defence, and has better combat spells. The fighter is doing single target hit point damage. The wizard scales better at combat. [*]Therefore there will be [I]some level[/I] at which the wizard catches the fighter in terms of combat ability [LIST] [*]Personal observational experience says probably by level 7, certainly by level 9 (OK, so this one is just personal observation) [/LIST] [*]By D&D Beyond statistics 90% of games end by level 10 - which is only slightly after the endgame kicks in. [*](On preview): The magic items in by the book 5e are if anything weighted [I]against[/I] the fighter in 5e; an AC 26 fighter would RAW require a +3 Shield (Very Rare) and +3 Plate Armour (Legendary). Admittedly neither of these require attunement. [/LIST] There are also some points about the fighter in specific: [LIST] [*]The fighter gains less from their feat level at levels 4 and 8 than the wizard; the wizard also advances their spellcasting. (Suggested fix: Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues (and probably Monks) get a free trained skill every time they get a feat) [*]The fighter level 9 ability (Indomitable) for a 1/day reroll is just very weak. And, worse, it's weak at a point when the fighter is already falling behind and needs something good. (Suggested Fix: Advantage on all saving throws - to bring back the classic fighter being spell resistant and to compete with the paladin and later monks) [*]The fighter's class abilities from levels 12-19 are a complete blasted wasteland of repeats of abilities and options that simply weren't good enough for them to pick at lower levels. [LIST] [*]There are a [I]few[/I] fighter builds where there's genuine synergy between two combat feats (Xbow expert/Sharpshooter and Polearm Master/Sentinel stop-and-flail come to mind) so the fourth feat/ASI is more valuable than it would have been earlier. Level 12 sometimes avoids this problem for fighters; level 14 doesn't. [*]Suggested fix: Fighters get an extra subclass in Tier 3 and 4 to represent how they go beyond normal limits. Or cap the game at level 11. [/LIST] [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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