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Master Summoner - take 2
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<blockquote data-quote="farscapesg1" data-source="post: 2300899" data-attributes="member: 15234"><p>My problem with this is a Celestial Badger for example. The SR for this creature is 8 (5 + creatures Hit Dice + 2 for Greater Augmentation). At most this would be 13 using your example at 10th level. Yes, you probably would never summon one of these creatures at that level, but if you did there is no way for it to overcome the protections of an opposing 16th level wizard (1d20 + caster level of 16 = 17 minimum). Even at the bonus I was thinking, the creature would have a 18 which could ignore the protections only on a 1 or 2.</p><p></p><p>Taking a 8th level spell, lets look at the Celestial Dire Bear. The SR for this creature would be 24 (12 + 5 + 2 + 5)with your version (able to bypass protections on a roll of 7 or less) and 29 (12 + 5 + 2 + 10) with my version (able to bypass protections on a roll 12 or less).</p><p></p><p>So, using your idea, even the highest level of summoning at that point (level 16) would only be able to bypass the protections about 1/3 of the time. Using my bonus it would be about 60% of the time. That still gives a significant chance of failure even for the high-level summoning spells. Not to mention that if I switch abilities around like you mentioned, the +2 to SR from Greater Summoning won't even take effect until 9th level of the class, further reducing this ability.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First, a horse isn't on any of the the Summon Monster (or even Summon Nature's Ally) lists. Remember that these abilities only work with the Summon Monster spells, not just any summoning or calling subschool spell. Even if a horse was listed as an option on the spells, why would it come with any barding to allow someone to ride it? I realize you were just using it as an example, but it isn't a good one. Instead of using the extra spell slot, why not just cast Phantom Steed which can move up to 240 ft per round (charge from 480 ft) at 12th level and can move over difficult terrain, water, and even air walk at 12th level (or fly at 14th). That seems to be much more dangerous than a normal horse being able to move 80 ft from the use of two spells.</p><p></p><p>Now, I'm not saying that there may be some problems with the ability, but I'm not sure it is really that awful. Yes, it is strong. You are comparing it to a quickend, mass spell, but there are limitations. </p><p>1) The spell only affects those creatures summoned.</p><p>2) Summoned creatures are only usuable for a short period of time (2 rounds per level with the extended summoning ability)</p><p>3) It is still possible to dispell/dismiss/banish the summoned creatures, resulting in the loss of both spells</p><p>4) This is only usable 2 times per day</p><p></p><p></p><p>It was just an idea. It doesn't remove the concern about getting a quickened, mass version of a spell, just limits what it can be used on. For example, a Summon Monster VI spell can summon 1 creature from the level 6 list, 1d3 from the level 5, or 1d4+1 from the level 4 list. Using the Spell Enhanced Summoning ability, the character would have to treat the Monster Summoning spell as if it was 1 spell level lower. So that Summon Monster VI spell would be treated in all ways as a Summon Monster V spell instead (1 creature from the 5th level list, 1d3 from the 4th, or 1d4+1 from the 3rd). Basically, it just lowers the power of the creatures that the spell is summoning in return for being able to enhance them with another spell.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="farscapesg1, post: 2300899, member: 15234"] My problem with this is a Celestial Badger for example. The SR for this creature is 8 (5 + creatures Hit Dice + 2 for Greater Augmentation). At most this would be 13 using your example at 10th level. Yes, you probably would never summon one of these creatures at that level, but if you did there is no way for it to overcome the protections of an opposing 16th level wizard (1d20 + caster level of 16 = 17 minimum). Even at the bonus I was thinking, the creature would have a 18 which could ignore the protections only on a 1 or 2. Taking a 8th level spell, lets look at the Celestial Dire Bear. The SR for this creature would be 24 (12 + 5 + 2 + 5)with your version (able to bypass protections on a roll of 7 or less) and 29 (12 + 5 + 2 + 10) with my version (able to bypass protections on a roll 12 or less). So, using your idea, even the highest level of summoning at that point (level 16) would only be able to bypass the protections about 1/3 of the time. Using my bonus it would be about 60% of the time. That still gives a significant chance of failure even for the high-level summoning spells. Not to mention that if I switch abilities around like you mentioned, the +2 to SR from Greater Summoning won't even take effect until 9th level of the class, further reducing this ability. First, a horse isn't on any of the the Summon Monster (or even Summon Nature's Ally) lists. Remember that these abilities only work with the Summon Monster spells, not just any summoning or calling subschool spell. Even if a horse was listed as an option on the spells, why would it come with any barding to allow someone to ride it? I realize you were just using it as an example, but it isn't a good one. Instead of using the extra spell slot, why not just cast Phantom Steed which can move up to 240 ft per round (charge from 480 ft) at 12th level and can move over difficult terrain, water, and even air walk at 12th level (or fly at 14th). That seems to be much more dangerous than a normal horse being able to move 80 ft from the use of two spells. Now, I'm not saying that there may be some problems with the ability, but I'm not sure it is really that awful. Yes, it is strong. You are comparing it to a quickend, mass spell, but there are limitations. 1) The spell only affects those creatures summoned. 2) Summoned creatures are only usuable for a short period of time (2 rounds per level with the extended summoning ability) 3) It is still possible to dispell/dismiss/banish the summoned creatures, resulting in the loss of both spells 4) This is only usable 2 times per day It was just an idea. It doesn't remove the concern about getting a quickened, mass version of a spell, just limits what it can be used on. For example, a Summon Monster VI spell can summon 1 creature from the level 6 list, 1d3 from the level 5, or 1d4+1 from the level 4 list. Using the Spell Enhanced Summoning ability, the character would have to treat the Monster Summoning spell as if it was 1 spell level lower. So that Summon Monster VI spell would be treated in all ways as a Summon Monster V spell instead (1 creature from the 5th level list, 1d3 from the 4th, or 1d4+1 from the 3rd). Basically, it just lowers the power of the creatures that the spell is summoning in return for being able to enhance them with another spell. [/QUOTE]
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