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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 9323370" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Early 2e was similar to 1e, so not that complex at char-gen. Can't speak to later-era 2e as (other than the settings) I stopped paying attention to it a year or two after initial release.</p><p></p><p>But yes, I've already noted tha in the WotC editions, char-gen is too complex. To me, it's a heavy vote in favour of playing a non-WotC edition.</p><p></p><p>They exist, as (supposedly) adults. I've seen (and on occasion felt) the thrown dice*, listened to the yelling, and put up with the pouting. Thankfully, that all went away about 17 years ago when I ended my previous campaign, after which I was much more careful about who I invited into the current one.</p><p></p><p>* - which has, admittedly, helped my dice collection a bit over the years: if you throw it at me, it's mine. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>While I get the analogy, for me it's not quite the same. For one, there's the money you spent on the bad movie which - for players - isn't often an issue in an RPG; even less so when one considers that the things most players do spend money on, e.g. dice, are one-time buys reusable from game to game.</p><p></p><p>For another, while after a long dull movie some might want to go home, others would eagerly want to go for that drink in hopes of salvaging at least some entertainment out of the evening.</p><p></p><p>I can handle what you call game-wreckers by as a player simply playing them at their own game or as a DM just having the setting react as it reasonably would to their shenanigans.</p><p></p><p>If someone doesn't do well when their characters die at low levels, that to me is a clear warning that they're also not going to do well later in the campaign when their characters lose levels, or lose all their magic items, or get a leg chopped off, or get turned into an earthworm. And the odds are very high that at some point or other all of those will happen...maybe not all to the same character*, but to someone; and if I-as-DM feel like I have to play favourites because Joe will get upset and Mary won't, that's just wrong.</p><p></p><p>It's even worse as a player if I sense the DM is playing favourites in order to avoid a scene, because there's nothing I can do about it.</p><p></p><p>* - though of those four things, plus death, all except the lose-all-items piece have happened to Lanefan the character during his career. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>That's not a pattern I've encountered. Then again, I'm pretty hard-line on metagaming and my players know this and are on board with it, so I might be solving a problem without knowing it exists. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>But in some ways I do see low-level D&D as a rogue-like. You start out all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, you run it as far as the dice will take it, and then you try again.</p><p></p><p>3e was fairly lethal at all levels IME; at mid-high levels more so than 1e I'd posit.</p><p></p><p>Then again were I ever to DM a 5e game (not likely), I'd change an awful lot of rules. Death would be more common (on average), and char-gen would be much simpler.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 9323370, member: 29398"] Early 2e was similar to 1e, so not that complex at char-gen. Can't speak to later-era 2e as (other than the settings) I stopped paying attention to it a year or two after initial release. But yes, I've already noted tha in the WotC editions, char-gen is too complex. To me, it's a heavy vote in favour of playing a non-WotC edition. They exist, as (supposedly) adults. I've seen (and on occasion felt) the thrown dice*, listened to the yelling, and put up with the pouting. Thankfully, that all went away about 17 years ago when I ended my previous campaign, after which I was much more careful about who I invited into the current one. * - which has, admittedly, helped my dice collection a bit over the years: if you throw it at me, it's mine. :) While I get the analogy, for me it's not quite the same. For one, there's the money you spent on the bad movie which - for players - isn't often an issue in an RPG; even less so when one considers that the things most players do spend money on, e.g. dice, are one-time buys reusable from game to game. For another, while after a long dull movie some might want to go home, others would eagerly want to go for that drink in hopes of salvaging at least some entertainment out of the evening. I can handle what you call game-wreckers by as a player simply playing them at their own game or as a DM just having the setting react as it reasonably would to their shenanigans. If someone doesn't do well when their characters die at low levels, that to me is a clear warning that they're also not going to do well later in the campaign when their characters lose levels, or lose all their magic items, or get a leg chopped off, or get turned into an earthworm. And the odds are very high that at some point or other all of those will happen...maybe not all to the same character*, but to someone; and if I-as-DM feel like I have to play favourites because Joe will get upset and Mary won't, that's just wrong. It's even worse as a player if I sense the DM is playing favourites in order to avoid a scene, because there's nothing I can do about it. * - though of those four things, plus death, all except the lose-all-items piece have happened to Lanefan the character during his career. :) That's not a pattern I've encountered. Then again, I'm pretty hard-line on metagaming and my players know this and are on board with it, so I might be solving a problem without knowing it exists. :) But in some ways I do see low-level D&D as a rogue-like. You start out all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, you run it as far as the dice will take it, and then you try again. 3e was fairly lethal at all levels IME; at mid-high levels more so than 1e I'd posit. Then again were I ever to DM a 5e game (not likely), I'd change an awful lot of rules. Death would be more common (on average), and char-gen would be much simpler. [/QUOTE]
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