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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9312006" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>They are, and that's a problem - because that's exactly and precisely the kind of thing that slows a game to crawl.</p><p></p><p>Especially when it's not a just a bunch of generic actions, but every single character having their own various sets of tables, which must be either memorized (something we all know most players are effectively incapable of of), or consulted every single time.</p><p></p><p>PF2E is not quick-running or agile game, as much as The Rules Lawyer might offer helpful suggestions to desperately try and speed it up to maybe 1/3rd of the speed of 5E.</p><p></p><p>It's not an impossible problem, but people pretending it's no problem at all are, to my mind, being extremely silly and engaging in a kind of denialism that's just not long-term helpful because in the end, the game will be played, and any flaws it has unveiled. Refusing to anticipate those flaws merely means people will be more annoyed with them, not less.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I see, that makes more sense - but unless Chronicles plays very different from the oWoD, nWoD or the modern oWoD (not sure what that's called), you're not using those at anywhere near the rate you're using powers in a vaguely 4E-style tactical RPG, where you might well use 3+ in a single round, and you'll certainly be using 1-2 absolutely every round.</p><p></p><p>And it's that slowdown that is the primary concern for me. It's what killed 4E for my group - at lower levels, 4E was highly playable, but as you got much past 11 (out of 30 instead of 20), the complexity of abilities, the number of abilities and how much stuff you need to check on/consult/use really, really piled up, and gradually took a game from running faster then 3.XE to running even slower than that (which was not a good place to be).</p><p></p><p>Maybe it'll somehow be fine if it's presented well enough but I am pretty skeptical and I think that skepticism is legit given the history of stuff like this.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 9312006, member: 18"] They are, and that's a problem - because that's exactly and precisely the kind of thing that slows a game to crawl. Especially when it's not a just a bunch of generic actions, but every single character having their own various sets of tables, which must be either memorized (something we all know most players are effectively incapable of of), or consulted every single time. PF2E is not quick-running or agile game, as much as The Rules Lawyer might offer helpful suggestions to desperately try and speed it up to maybe 1/3rd of the speed of 5E. It's not an impossible problem, but people pretending it's no problem at all are, to my mind, being extremely silly and engaging in a kind of denialism that's just not long-term helpful because in the end, the game will be played, and any flaws it has unveiled. Refusing to anticipate those flaws merely means people will be more annoyed with them, not less. I see, that makes more sense - but unless Chronicles plays very different from the oWoD, nWoD or the modern oWoD (not sure what that's called), you're not using those at anywhere near the rate you're using powers in a vaguely 4E-style tactical RPG, where you might well use 3+ in a single round, and you'll certainly be using 1-2 absolutely every round. And it's that slowdown that is the primary concern for me. It's what killed 4E for my group - at lower levels, 4E was highly playable, but as you got much past 11 (out of 30 instead of 20), the complexity of abilities, the number of abilities and how much stuff you need to check on/consult/use really, really piled up, and gradually took a game from running faster then 3.XE to running even slower than that (which was not a good place to be). Maybe it'll somehow be fine if it's presented well enough but I am pretty skeptical and I think that skepticism is legit given the history of stuff like this. [/QUOTE]
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