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Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7760222" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>You said that "<em><strong>I assume "remains the same" is not strictly literal</strong></em>" Per RAW, "<em>remains the same</em>" must be taken strictly literally, otherwise we are proposing RAI. In the case of trying to snatch up a ring, remains the same is easy to apply: no one snatches up the ring. That's true no matter how many are involved, until there is a clear winner. In the case of a foot race, remains the same is not easy to apply, because perforce the situation has changed. Worse still, where more than two creatures are involved, allowing affairs to "remain the same" for some binary compares, and "not remain the same" for others, is paradoxical.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, I think that was a poor example so will retract it. I think there is a reasonable question about whether the generality of "<em>the DM decides... the difficulty of the task</em>" includes that the difficulty of the task may be established by the rolls of other parties. There are a few basic cases -</p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">There can only be one winner, all others lose out; and</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">There are shades of winning and loss, so a ranking is needed; and</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Non-zero sum: creatures succeed or fail independently.</li> </ol><p></p><p>The RAW literally states that a tied Contest results in things remaining the same. That cannot be precisely true in terms of what is imagined, because even in the holding the door shut example surely the contestants might shift their feet slightly as part of their struggle! However, it can be precisely true in terms of the mechanical outcome: there either is one winner, or there is no change in progress toward an outcome. Contests are narrow. Broader, is a more usual ability check against a DC set by the DM, for example a climb, where creatures succeed of fail independently. Then there is our in-between case, which is seen most evidently in Initiative checks, which have been confirmed to be ability checks so that Jack of All Trades applies to them.</p><p></p><p>I don't see the value of conflating the different methods, and I don't believe that is what the RAW taken literally implies. I do agree that separating them out and choosing between them is not so clear as it appears at first glance.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7760222, member: 71699"] You said that "[I][B]I assume "remains the same" is not strictly literal[/B][/I]" Per RAW, "[I]remains the same[/I]" must be taken strictly literally, otherwise we are proposing RAI. In the case of trying to snatch up a ring, remains the same is easy to apply: no one snatches up the ring. That's true no matter how many are involved, until there is a clear winner. In the case of a foot race, remains the same is not easy to apply, because perforce the situation has changed. Worse still, where more than two creatures are involved, allowing affairs to "remain the same" for some binary compares, and "not remain the same" for others, is paradoxical. Yes, I think that was a poor example so will retract it. I think there is a reasonable question about whether the generality of "[I]the DM decides... the difficulty of the task[/I]" includes that the difficulty of the task may be established by the rolls of other parties. There are a few basic cases - [LIST=1] [*]There can only be one winner, all others lose out; and [*]There are shades of winning and loss, so a ranking is needed; and [*]Non-zero sum: creatures succeed or fail independently. [/LIST] The RAW literally states that a tied Contest results in things remaining the same. That cannot be precisely true in terms of what is imagined, because even in the holding the door shut example surely the contestants might shift their feet slightly as part of their struggle! However, it can be precisely true in terms of the mechanical outcome: there either is one winner, or there is no change in progress toward an outcome. Contests are narrow. Broader, is a more usual ability check against a DC set by the DM, for example a climb, where creatures succeed of fail independently. Then there is our in-between case, which is seen most evidently in Initiative checks, which have been confirmed to be ability checks so that Jack of All Trades applies to them. I don't see the value of conflating the different methods, and I don't believe that is what the RAW taken literally implies. I do agree that separating them out and choosing between them is not so clear as it appears at first glance. [/QUOTE]
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