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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7760610" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I've played a short campaign of this but never GMed it. It's on my list!</p><p></p><p>We'e never done combat-as-skill-challenge - the closest we've come is using a skill check in the appropriate context to "minionise" an opponent (ie render the opponent vulnerable to a one-shot kill).</p><p></p><p>I like the skill challenge system as set out in the DMG and DMG2 - I can't compare it to Trollbabe (I know that game by reptuation but that's all) but can compare it to HeroWars/Quest extended resolution, and to Duel of Wits in BW: unlike those systems there is no active opposition, so the GM really has to work hard on the narration to keep the pressure up to the players, so they have a reason to keep declaring actions; but the flipside is that the fiction is really front-and-centre, because there's no other way to make the process unfold - it can't degenerate into just opposed checks.</p><p></p><p>Seeing as I'm posting links to actual play, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?309950-Actual-play-my-first-quot-social-only-quot-session" target="_blank">here</a> <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?312367-Actual-play-another-combat-free-session-with-intra-party-dyanmics" target="_blank">are</a> <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353496-First-time-godslayers-PCs-kill-Torog" target="_blank">three</a> to some of my favourite skill challenges from my 4e game.</p><p></p><p>When I talk about 4e as player-driven, I'm thinking of both PC build and play. Theme and action permeate the PC-building elements (most of the races, most of the classes, paragon paths, epic destinies); the encounter building is mechanically incredibly robust, so as a referee its easy to build situations that will engage with that theme and action (it's almost the opposite of classic D&D in this respect: instead of caution and preparation and worries about adversarial GMing, as a GM you can just let yourself go with gonzo framing and consequences, and the players have the resources and narrative context to respond and really engage); and the structure of PC resources allows really easy adjudication of all sorts of improvisation - producing play that in some was resembles "free descriptor" games even though it's a list-based system. Rather than reading what is possible off the mechanics (as in a sim game like Traveller or RQ, which is also, I think, how D&D is normally played), what is possible in the fiction is established by reference to the descriptions in the PHB and DMG of the "tiers of play", supplemented by the narrative aspects of class, paragon path and epic destiny, seen through each table's particular lens into what it all means. (<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?440504-The-Abyss-sealed-the-drow-freed-the-campaign-reaches-its-climax" target="_blank">Here's an example of improvisation</a> - sealing the Abyss - which is ultra-gonzo in the fiction but easy to frame and adjudicate in mechanical terms.)</p><p></p><p>I'll give an abstract explanation first, and then relate it to the discussion of 4e play just above.</p><p></p><p>By "objective" DCs I mean a method of setting difficulties where the difficulty is read off a prior in-fiction understanding of how hard the situation is. This is how Classic Traveller, Rolemaster, RuneQuest and Burning Wheel work. I suspect it's how most people run 5e, although the actual 5e rules don't come out and say this. AD&D doesn't really have a system for setting DCs - it's just got all its singluar little sub-systems - but some parts of AD&D work like this (eg applying modifications to climbing checks set out in Gygax's DMG).</p><p></p><p>But other aspects of AD&D exhibit "subjective" DCs: the saving throw rules, for example, where the difficulty is set not by the fiction but by a system stipulation, and we read the fiction off that. 4e works like this - the DCs are set in combat by creature level and out of combat by the DC-by-level chart, and the GM narrates the fiction in a way that conforms to those fiction-set DCs. MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic works the same way, though using a dice pool to set the difficulties rather than a chart or formula like in AD&D and 4e. Dungeon World and HeroQuest revised are two more systems that use "subjective" DCs: in DW, the difficulties are built into the mechanics of each "move"; in HQrev the dfficulties are generated by a formula that factors in PC skill levels and pacing considerations.</p><p></p><p>In a "subjective" DC game, we don't work out what a PC can do by comparing his/her bonus to the DC that is read off the fiction. We work out what a PC can do by reading <em>that</em> straight off the fiction and the logic of the game's genre - and when a player delcares an action for his/her PC that is consistent with that fiction/genre logic, the difficulty is then established using the relevant mechanical system (chart, table, dice pool, the definitions of the "moves" in DW, etc).</p><p></p><p>In the 4e example of sealing the Abyss, there is no DC for sealing the Abyss, such that a player knows that when his/her PC's bonus gets to a certain level that feat is within the realm of possible accomplishments. Rather, at my table we know that the PC can attempt sealing the Abyss because he is an epic tier chaos sorcerer and emergent primordial. We know that Arcana is the relevant skill because the skill description says that it can be used to manipulate magical phenomena. And I then set the DC by reference to the DC-by-level chart.</p><p></p><p>LostSoul described the contrast nicely (using 3E and 4e as his comparitors) in this old post:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>What [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] says here is absolutely true to my experience with 4e. And his description of 3E is true to my experience of "objective" DC systems like Rolemaster, BW, etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7760610, member: 42582"] I've played a short campaign of this but never GMed it. It's on my list! We'e never done combat-as-skill-challenge - the closest we've come is using a skill check in the appropriate context to "minionise" an opponent (ie render the opponent vulnerable to a one-shot kill). I like the skill challenge system as set out in the DMG and DMG2 - I can't compare it to Trollbabe (I know that game by reptuation but that's all) but can compare it to HeroWars/Quest extended resolution, and to Duel of Wits in BW: unlike those systems there is no active opposition, so the GM really has to work hard on the narration to keep the pressure up to the players, so they have a reason to keep declaring actions; but the flipside is that the fiction is really front-and-centre, because there's no other way to make the process unfold - it can't degenerate into just opposed checks. Seeing as I'm posting links to actual play, [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?309950-Actual-play-my-first-quot-social-only-quot-session]here[/url] [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?312367-Actual-play-another-combat-free-session-with-intra-party-dyanmics]are[/url] [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?353496-First-time-godslayers-PCs-kill-Torog]three[/url] to some of my favourite skill challenges from my 4e game. When I talk about 4e as player-driven, I'm thinking of both PC build and play. Theme and action permeate the PC-building elements (most of the races, most of the classes, paragon paths, epic destinies); the encounter building is mechanically incredibly robust, so as a referee its easy to build situations that will engage with that theme and action (it's almost the opposite of classic D&D in this respect: instead of caution and preparation and worries about adversarial GMing, as a GM you can just let yourself go with gonzo framing and consequences, and the players have the resources and narrative context to respond and really engage); and the structure of PC resources allows really easy adjudication of all sorts of improvisation - producing play that in some was resembles "free descriptor" games even though it's a list-based system. Rather than reading what is possible off the mechanics (as in a sim game like Traveller or RQ, which is also, I think, how D&D is normally played), what is possible in the fiction is established by reference to the descriptions in the PHB and DMG of the "tiers of play", supplemented by the narrative aspects of class, paragon path and epic destiny, seen through each table's particular lens into what it all means. ([url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?440504-The-Abyss-sealed-the-drow-freed-the-campaign-reaches-its-climax]Here's an example of improvisation[/url] - sealing the Abyss - which is ultra-gonzo in the fiction but easy to frame and adjudicate in mechanical terms.) I'll give an abstract explanation first, and then relate it to the discussion of 4e play just above. By "objective" DCs I mean a method of setting difficulties where the difficulty is read off a prior in-fiction understanding of how hard the situation is. This is how Classic Traveller, Rolemaster, RuneQuest and Burning Wheel work. I suspect it's how most people run 5e, although the actual 5e rules don't come out and say this. AD&D doesn't really have a system for setting DCs - it's just got all its singluar little sub-systems - but some parts of AD&D work like this (eg applying modifications to climbing checks set out in Gygax's DMG). But other aspects of AD&D exhibit "subjective" DCs: the saving throw rules, for example, where the difficulty is set not by the fiction but by a system stipulation, and we read the fiction off that. 4e works like this - the DCs are set in combat by creature level and out of combat by the DC-by-level chart, and the GM narrates the fiction in a way that conforms to those fiction-set DCs. MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic works the same way, though using a dice pool to set the difficulties rather than a chart or formula like in AD&D and 4e. Dungeon World and HeroQuest revised are two more systems that use "subjective" DCs: in DW, the difficulties are built into the mechanics of each "move"; in HQrev the dfficulties are generated by a formula that factors in PC skill levels and pacing considerations. In a "subjective" DC game, we don't work out what a PC can do by comparing his/her bonus to the DC that is read off the fiction. We work out what a PC can do by reading [I]that[/I] straight off the fiction and the logic of the game's genre - and when a player delcares an action for his/her PC that is consistent with that fiction/genre logic, the difficulty is then established using the relevant mechanical system (chart, table, dice pool, the definitions of the "moves" in DW, etc). In the 4e example of sealing the Abyss, there is no DC for sealing the Abyss, such that a player knows that when his/her PC's bonus gets to a certain level that feat is within the realm of possible accomplishments. Rather, at my table we know that the PC can attempt sealing the Abyss because he is an epic tier chaos sorcerer and emergent primordial. We know that Arcana is the relevant skill because the skill description says that it can be used to manipulate magical phenomena. And I then set the DC by reference to the DC-by-level chart. LostSoul described the contrast nicely (using 3E and 4e as his comparitors) in this old post: [indent][/indent] What [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] says here is absolutely true to my experience with 4e. And his description of 3E is true to my experience of "objective" DC systems like Rolemaster, BW, etc. [/QUOTE]
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