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D&D Older Editions
Mike Mearls on how 4E could have looked
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7518869" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>This is roughly the case with 5e (as should be expected as it is effectively AD&D 3e). This is why discussing lower tier play and surveys relating to lower tier play, when the discussion at hand is regarding the lack of parity of martial features + 5e's GM-mediated action resolution mechanics with spellcaster's overwhelming and player-fiat payload in noncombat resolution at high/epic, is basically a <em>price of tea in China</em> moment. Its utterly unresponsive and irrelevant. </p><p></p><p>The overwhelming majority of my 5e GMing is level 11+ (I started filling in for my friend randomly due to his arbitrary schedule at level 7 and continued through level 18) in a game that featured a Diviner, a Champion, and a Thief. To say the Diviner dominated play from level 11 onward (because I don't pull out the pathetic, eye-rolley, classic blocks that Illusionist 2e GMs routinely pull to rein in/"balance" spellcasters), particularly noncombat resolution and obstacle obviation, would be an understatement. These are all young kids of roughly the same IQ and creativity (which is not insignificant on any of their parts).</p><p></p><p>The resources of high level spellcasters in 5e, particularly Diviners, is extreme. They aren't 3.x extreme, but that is a VERY low bar to set. Further, in some ways (probably several), they're more fun to play than their 3.x analogue.</p><p></p><p>I've run these same kids through a Dungeon World campaign (same players ran the same playbooks; Wizard, Fighter, Thief). The difference between the power levels on a per-level basis goes without notice in DW. I've also run them through some Beyond the Wall.</p><p></p><p>This isn't a 4e vs all other editions issue. This is an all other editions issue conditioning a mental framework within the player-base that has completely ossified due to long-term exposure and lack of perspective (due to perception bias and lack of exposure to other play paradigms). The fact that spellcasting-by-fiat (with no roll required for action resolution in the "martial + mundane" components of the obviously unbelievably difficult craft) gets a complete pass while preoccupation with vertical jumps by martial characters is orthodox GMing is the complete_smoking_gun. The conversation should absolutely end there and a new one should begin that starts with "yeah...that blinkered double standard is utterly irrational...what now?"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7518869, member: 6696971"] This is roughly the case with 5e (as should be expected as it is effectively AD&D 3e). This is why discussing lower tier play and surveys relating to lower tier play, when the discussion at hand is regarding the lack of parity of martial features + 5e's GM-mediated action resolution mechanics with spellcaster's overwhelming and player-fiat payload in noncombat resolution at high/epic, is basically a [I]price of tea in China[/I] moment. Its utterly unresponsive and irrelevant. The overwhelming majority of my 5e GMing is level 11+ (I started filling in for my friend randomly due to his arbitrary schedule at level 7 and continued through level 18) in a game that featured a Diviner, a Champion, and a Thief. To say the Diviner dominated play from level 11 onward (because I don't pull out the pathetic, eye-rolley, classic blocks that Illusionist 2e GMs routinely pull to rein in/"balance" spellcasters), particularly noncombat resolution and obstacle obviation, would be an understatement. These are all young kids of roughly the same IQ and creativity (which is not insignificant on any of their parts). The resources of high level spellcasters in 5e, particularly Diviners, is extreme. They aren't 3.x extreme, but that is a VERY low bar to set. Further, in some ways (probably several), they're more fun to play than their 3.x analogue. I've run these same kids through a Dungeon World campaign (same players ran the same playbooks; Wizard, Fighter, Thief). The difference between the power levels on a per-level basis goes without notice in DW. I've also run them through some Beyond the Wall. This isn't a 4e vs all other editions issue. This is an all other editions issue conditioning a mental framework within the player-base that has completely ossified due to long-term exposure and lack of perspective (due to perception bias and lack of exposure to other play paradigms). The fact that spellcasting-by-fiat (with no roll required for action resolution in the "martial + mundane" components of the obviously unbelievably difficult craft) gets a complete pass while preoccupation with vertical jumps by martial characters is orthodox GMing is the complete_smoking_gun. The conversation should absolutely end there and a new one should begin that starts with "yeah...that blinkered double standard is utterly irrational...what now?" [/QUOTE]
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