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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7081504" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>A few others have taken a stab at this, but, if you don't mind, I'd like to chip in my 2 cents.</p><p></p><p>The biggest difference, for me, between FR and Greyhawk is the difference between high fantasy and sword and sorcery fantasy. In high fantasy, you get epic stories, cast of thousands, with mass armies moving back and forth across the landscape. S&S is more local. It's not about these big, massive plots, but, rather, focused on one city, one location (although, like in Conan, that location can obviously change between stories) and generally the actions of a small group of people who aren't the movers and shakers of the setting.</p><p></p><p>So, you get adventures like GDQ in Greyhawk. A smallish kingdom is threatened by giants. A group of adventurers gets shanghaied to deal with the giants. If the adventurers fail, well, at worst a single kingdom gets stomped by giants. Even the Drow modules deal with a single (insanely nasty) city of Drow for the most part. And, again, the price of failure doesn't really impact the larger setting. </p><p></p><p>Compare that to the AP's we've gotten for Forgotten Realms. The Tiamat modules are about summoning a GOD to the Realms who's going to lay waste to vast swaths of the Realms if successful. Out of the Abyss summons Demon Princes into the Realms, destroys vast swaths of the Underdark, and, if the PC's fail, this carries huge consequences for the setting as a whole. </p><p></p><p>Where Greyhawk went south is when they ignored that difference and brought in the Greyhawk wars. They added High Fantasy to a setting that didn't need or (in my case anyway) want it. Vast undead armies battling across the setting and the Fate of the World hanging in the balance. That's NOT what S&S fiction is about. At least, not very often <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" />. </p><p></p><p>To me, a Greyhawk build for 5e would focus on those core concepts:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Adventures are local</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Adventurers are rare</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The higher ups of the setting, the big wizards, the generals, the kings, are background and backdrops (and possibly occasionally victims <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> )</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Weird, weird, weird. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Morality isn't really a thing. The heroes aren't doing it for God and Country. They're doing it because they want something for themselves. </li> </ul><p></p><p>A good example of how you can make a change towards S&S fiction in D&D is from Primeval Thule. In Thule, clerics gain access to their magic by training through the clergy, but, after they gain the ability to cast spells, the gods have nothing to do with them. They're essentially just another kind of wizard with better PR and generally more organization. That, right there, helps with moral ambiguity. That cleric of Pelor might very well be a chaotic evil cultist who's using his position to sacrifice souls to Demogorgon all the while still having access to everything a Pelorite cleric can do. :evil grin:</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7081504, member: 22779"] A few others have taken a stab at this, but, if you don't mind, I'd like to chip in my 2 cents. The biggest difference, for me, between FR and Greyhawk is the difference between high fantasy and sword and sorcery fantasy. In high fantasy, you get epic stories, cast of thousands, with mass armies moving back and forth across the landscape. S&S is more local. It's not about these big, massive plots, but, rather, focused on one city, one location (although, like in Conan, that location can obviously change between stories) and generally the actions of a small group of people who aren't the movers and shakers of the setting. So, you get adventures like GDQ in Greyhawk. A smallish kingdom is threatened by giants. A group of adventurers gets shanghaied to deal with the giants. If the adventurers fail, well, at worst a single kingdom gets stomped by giants. Even the Drow modules deal with a single (insanely nasty) city of Drow for the most part. And, again, the price of failure doesn't really impact the larger setting. Compare that to the AP's we've gotten for Forgotten Realms. The Tiamat modules are about summoning a GOD to the Realms who's going to lay waste to vast swaths of the Realms if successful. Out of the Abyss summons Demon Princes into the Realms, destroys vast swaths of the Underdark, and, if the PC's fail, this carries huge consequences for the setting as a whole. Where Greyhawk went south is when they ignored that difference and brought in the Greyhawk wars. They added High Fantasy to a setting that didn't need or (in my case anyway) want it. Vast undead armies battling across the setting and the Fate of the World hanging in the balance. That's NOT what S&S fiction is about. At least, not very often :D. To me, a Greyhawk build for 5e would focus on those core concepts: [list][*]Adventures are local[*]Adventurers are rare[*]The higher ups of the setting, the big wizards, the generals, the kings, are background and backdrops (and possibly occasionally victims :) )[*]Weird, weird, weird. [*]Morality isn't really a thing. The heroes aren't doing it for God and Country. They're doing it because they want something for themselves. [/list] A good example of how you can make a change towards S&S fiction in D&D is from Primeval Thule. In Thule, clerics gain access to their magic by training through the clergy, but, after they gain the ability to cast spells, the gods have nothing to do with them. They're essentially just another kind of wizard with better PR and generally more organization. That, right there, helps with moral ambiguity. That cleric of Pelor might very well be a chaotic evil cultist who's using his position to sacrifice souls to Demogorgon all the while still having access to everything a Pelorite cleric can do. :evil grin: [/QUOTE]
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