Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Mike Mearls: so here’s the first part of my two-weapon fighting house rule
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Yunru" data-source="post: 7514677" data-attributes="member: 6780961"><p>Again, your maths is wrong.</p><p>From 4 attacks I assume we're level 11. You mention Dual Wielder so I'll assume one feat.</p><p></p><p>A Dual Wielder uses two Longswords at 1d8+5 each.</p><p>From the 4 attacks, we have an average damage of 38 (which will have to be multiplied by accuracy).</p><p>From the chance of critting, we have an average damage of 4*0.05*4.5, which is 0.9.</p><p></p><p>A Great Weapon Master uses a Greatsword at 2d6+5.</p><p>From the 3 attacks (not using the -5/+10, because otherwise this table becomes 5 columns wider) we have an average damage of 40 (again, multiplied by accuracy).</p><p>5% of the time, we crit, adding not just 2d6, but another attack, making things complicated.</p><p>First the damage bonus from the crit: 0.05*25 = 1.25</p><p>Second the damage from the bonus attack: 0.05*13.33333 = 0.66666666 (again, multiplied by accuracy)</p><p>Thirdly the damage bonus from the crit from the bonus attack: 0.05*0.05*8.3333333= 0.020833333</p><p></p><p>A Crossbow Expert Archer uses a Hand Crossbow at 1d6+5. It also has 4 attacks.</p><p>From the attacks: 34 damage (multiplied by accuracy)</p><p>From the crits: 4*3.5*0.05 = 0.7</p><p></p><p>A Duelist, with no feats, deals 1d8+7 three times.</p><p>From the attacks: 34.5 damage (* accuracy)</p><p>From the crits: 3*0.05*4.5 = 0.675</p><p></p><p>So let's put this into a table, red means TWF is worse, green is better:</p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><strong>Style</strong> \ <strong>AC</strong></td><td>10</td><td>11</td><td>12</td><td>13</td><td>14</td><td>15</td><td>16</td><td>17</td><td>18</td><td>19</td><td>20</td><td>21</td><td>22</td><td>23</td><td>24</td><td>25</td><td>26</td><td>27</td><td>28</td><td>29</td><td>30</td><td>31</td></tr><tr><td>Two Weapon Fighting (Dual Wielder)</td><td>37</td><td>37</td><td>35.1</td><td>33.2</td><td>31.3</td><td>29.4</td><td>27.5</td><td>25.6</td><td>23.7</td><td>21.8</td><td>19.9</td><td>18.0</td><td>16.1</td><td>14.2</td><td>12.3</td><td>10.4</td><td>8.5</td><td>6.6</td><td>4.7</td><td>2.8</td><td>2.8</td><td>2.8</td></tr><tr><td>Duelist (No Feat)</td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">33.45</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">33.45</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">31.725</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">30</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">28.275</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">26.55</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">24.825</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">23.1</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">21.375</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">19.65</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">17.925</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">16.2</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">14.475</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">12.75</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">11.025</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">9.3</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">7.575</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">5.85</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">4.125</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">2.4</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">2.4</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">2.4</span></td></tr><tr><td>Archery (Crossbow Expert)</td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">33</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">33</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">33</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">33</span></td><td>31.3</td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">29.6</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">27.9</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">26.2</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">24.5</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">22.8</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">21.1</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">19.4</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">17.7</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">16</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">14.3</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">12.6</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">10.9</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">9.2</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">7.5</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">5.8</span></td><td><span style="color: #ff0000">4.1</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">2.4</span></td></tr><tr><td>Great Weapon Fighter (Great Weapon Master)</td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">26.1791333(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">26.1791333(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">24.9083</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">23.6374666(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">22.3666333(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">21.0958</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">19.8249666(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">18.5541333(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">17.2833</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">16.0124666(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">14.7416333(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">13.4708</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">12.1999666(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">10.9291333(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">9.6583</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">8.3874666(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">7.1166333(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">5.8458</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">4.5749666(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">3.3041333(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">3.3041333(...)</span></td><td><span style="color: #00ff00">3.3041333(...)</span></td></tr></table><p><span style="color: #00ff00"></span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00"></span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00"></span></p><p></p><p>N.B. That the above <em>doesn't</em> include Action Surge, which favours every style <em>bar</em> TWF.</p><p>I'd do one for GWF with -5/+10, and one for every style with Action Surge, but I'm tired of all the maths.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Yunru, post: 7514677, member: 6780961"] Again, your maths is wrong. From 4 attacks I assume we're level 11. You mention Dual Wielder so I'll assume one feat. A Dual Wielder uses two Longswords at 1d8+5 each. From the 4 attacks, we have an average damage of 38 (which will have to be multiplied by accuracy). From the chance of critting, we have an average damage of 4*0.05*4.5, which is 0.9. A Great Weapon Master uses a Greatsword at 2d6+5. From the 3 attacks (not using the -5/+10, because otherwise this table becomes 5 columns wider) we have an average damage of 40 (again, multiplied by accuracy). 5% of the time, we crit, adding not just 2d6, but another attack, making things complicated. First the damage bonus from the crit: 0.05*25 = 1.25 Second the damage from the bonus attack: 0.05*13.33333 = 0.66666666 (again, multiplied by accuracy) Thirdly the damage bonus from the crit from the bonus attack: 0.05*0.05*8.3333333= 0.020833333 A Crossbow Expert Archer uses a Hand Crossbow at 1d6+5. It also has 4 attacks. From the attacks: 34 damage (multiplied by accuracy) From the crits: 4*3.5*0.05 = 0.7 A Duelist, with no feats, deals 1d8+7 three times. From the attacks: 34.5 damage (* accuracy) From the crits: 3*0.05*4.5 = 0.675 So let's put this into a table, red means TWF is worse, green is better: [TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: left"] [TR] [TD][B]Style[/B] \ [B]AC[/B][/TD] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]11[/TD] [TD]12[/TD] [TD]13[/TD] [TD]14[/TD] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]16[/TD] [TD]17[/TD] [TD]18[/TD] [TD]19[/TD] [TD]20[/TD] [TD]21[/TD] [TD]22[/TD] [TD]23[/TD] [TD]24[/TD] [TD]25[/TD] [TD]26[/TD] [TD]27[/TD] [TD]28[/TD] [TD]29[/TD] [TD]30[/TD] [TD]31[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Two Weapon Fighting (Dual Wielder)[/TD] [TD]37[/TD] [TD]37[/TD] [TD]35.1[/TD] [TD]33.2[/TD] [TD]31.3[/TD] [TD]29.4[/TD] [TD]27.5[/TD] [TD]25.6[/TD] [TD]23.7[/TD] [TD]21.8[/TD] [TD]19.9[/TD] [TD]18.0[/TD] [TD]16.1[/TD] [TD]14.2[/TD] [TD]12.3[/TD] [TD]10.4[/TD] [TD]8.5[/TD] [TD]6.6[/TD] [TD]4.7[/TD] [TD]2.8[/TD] [TD]2.8[/TD] [TD]2.8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Duelist (No Feat)[/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]33.45[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]33.45[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]31.725[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]30[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]28.275[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]26.55[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]24.825[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]23.1[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]21.375[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]19.65[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]17.925[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]16.2[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]14.475[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]12.75[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]11.025[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]9.3[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]7.575[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]5.85[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]4.125[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]2.4[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]2.4[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]2.4[/COLOR][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Archery (Crossbow Expert)[/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]33[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]33[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]33[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]33[/COLOR][/TD] [TD]31.3[/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]29.6[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]27.9[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]26.2[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]24.5[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]22.8[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]21.1[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]19.4[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]17.7[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]16[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]14.3[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]12.6[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]10.9[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]9.2[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]7.5[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]5.8[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#ff0000]4.1[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]2.4[/COLOR][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Great Weapon Fighter (Great Weapon Master)[/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]26.1791333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]26.1791333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]24.9083[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]23.6374666(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]22.3666333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]21.0958[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]19.8249666(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]18.5541333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]17.2833[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]16.0124666(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]14.7416333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]13.4708[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]12.1999666(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]10.9291333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]9.6583[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]8.3874666(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]7.1166333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]5.8458[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]4.5749666(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]3.3041333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]3.3041333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [TD][COLOR=#00ff00]3.3041333(...)[/COLOR][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [COLOR=#00ff00] [/COLOR] N.B. That the above [I]doesn't[/I] include Action Surge, which favours every style [I]bar[/I] TWF. I'd do one for GWF with -5/+10, and one for every style with Action Surge, but I'm tired of all the maths. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Mike Mearls: so here’s the first part of my two-weapon fighting house rule
Top