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General Tabletop Discussion
Character Builds & Optimization
Monk build: I'd appreciate your thoughts and any advice.
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<blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 1086526" data-attributes="member: 7211"><p>Monk is easily the hardest class to choose when to stop taking levels. I mean it seems like any level you stop at, there are more benefits to have by staying in "just 1 more level", which never stops, all the way to 20. So, I'll stick with your original intention, straight monk.</p><p></p><p>As gfunk said, you are severely neglecting CON, the basis of anyone who wants to tango in melee. I'm assuming you are looking for a 9th level build, so here goes:</p><p></p><p>High Elf Mnk9</p><p></p><p>STR 12</p><p>Dex 19</p><p>Con 14</p><p>Int 13</p><p>Wis 16</p><p>Cha 8</p><p></p><p>[I switched Str and Con around. This way you get about 18 more hp, +2 on Fort Saves at the cost of -2 to hit, -2 damage. Imo, your guy was more about disarming, grappling, tripping than straight up damage, and its better to live to do those things another round than stick it to the enemy for a couple more points of damage. I put both ability increases in dex. Since you aren't really pressing things like Stunning Fist, your Wis modifier takes second fiddle to dex, after-all dex boosts Weapon Finesse, Initiative, Ranged Attacks, and Reflex Saves (you have Imp Evasion, might as well make sure it comes in handy). I would put the next increase in Dex and the 2 after that in Wis.]</p><p></p><p>Feats</p><p>Mnk 1: Improved Grapple</p><p>1st: Combat Expertise</p><p>Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes</p><p>3rd: Exotic Weapon Spiked Chain</p><p>Mnk 6: Improved Trip</p><p>6th: Weapon Finesse</p><p>9th: Improved Disarm</p><p></p><p>[Since we are going for more of a Dex-build, I added Wpn Finesse at 6th which bumped Imp Disarm to 9th. Expert Tactician is still a good choice for a higher level feat, as is Imp. Initiative (if somewhat lackluster).]</p><p></p><p>Tactics:</p><p></p><p>Ok, things get tricky. Spiked Chain is your friend and primary weapon. With Weapon Finesse and a Dex +2 item we are looking at +12/+7 BAB, not counting the chains enhancement beyond masterwork. The chain should be both magical and made of a special material (Not Adamantine if you plan on riding monk till the end). Probably Cold Iron. </p><p></p><p>Keep in mind you are not in the fight to do damage, you are there to lend support to the rogue with flanks, to trip monsters (when possible), disarm enemies (when possible), and to drop your chain and grapple wizards. Eventually Spring Attack will be a nice path to follow, as with your extreme speed and range you can make excellent use of it. Don't try and be a hero and stick around for a lot of full-attacks (you only get 2 anyway), stay moving, tumble in for an attack (or disarm or trip attempt) and next round tumble out. Be in position to take advantage of AoOs (and remember you can use your AoO to trip the enemy, gaining yet another attack (and possibly a third, with Expert tactician)).</p><p></p><p>While you should try to stay in Spiked Chain reach range, I would carry a Mwk Lt X-bow and some decent bolts just in case. Your dex bonus is sufficient to give you a decent attack bonus with it, and you never know when you may not be able to get to the enemy (yes, even the monk with 60 ft. movement).</p><p></p><p>Your last resort should be your fists. It can still be a nice surprise (and good damage, 1d10) and works especially well in weird situations (jail, bar fight, etc) where your party isn't at full strength. It also makes you a good candidate to infiltrate somewhere as you don't need your weapon to be with you. Also, thanks to 3.5 Weapon Finesse, you still use your dex modifier.</p><p></p><p>Other good weapons to look-out for are Kama, Nunchaku, Sai, and Sianham - all are light and therefore use your Dex mod instead of Str mod.</p><p></p><p>GFunk is right that the Spiked Chain doesn't quite mesh with the phb 3.5 monk, however an enlightened DM may allow you to take a feat that allows a weapon to be considered a monk weapon, at which point 2 of your feats will have paid off big time. </p><p></p><p>Down the Road:</p><p></p><p>While it is extremely tough to gauge when to cut off the monk levels, I think level 13 is a good (if not round) number. You have just acquired Abundant Step (at 12th) and SR 23 (at 13th). For comparison's sake, that SR is better than "Mantle of Spell Resistance" which is valued at 90,000 (and only has SR 21). Your fists are also as powerful as greatswords and while you didn't make it to Quivering Palm or Adamantine Ki Strike, you have a lot of powerful monk abilities (+40 Speed, +2 Inherent AC, Wis to AC, Greater Flurry of Attacks, Improved Evasion, etc).</p><p></p><p>So what's next? Well, fighter levels will let you round out your feat selection, paladin offers a holy path (although keep in mind, your cha sucks), and barbarians offer a buff bad-ass path. I would also keep rogue in mind, if you prefer sneakiness (although the stacking of evasions and never reaching a rogue "special ability" hurts - the rogue's Crippling Strike would be especially nice for this monk).</p><p></p><p>7 levels of a fighter class (or a combination) offer the best option, allowing your BAB to reach +16 at level 20 (4 attacks, or 6 with Greater Flurry of Blows). Taking 6 levels of fighter will boost your damage (allowing for WF and WS) as well as possibly getting you Whirlwind Attack by 20th level. 7 barbarian levels will net you a few rages per day, culminating in DR 1/-. Paladin levels offer quite a few benefits, but would be difficult with your low Cha.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, I hope some of this was insightful. Have fun!</p><p></p><p>Technik</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Technik4, post: 1086526, member: 7211"] Monk is easily the hardest class to choose when to stop taking levels. I mean it seems like any level you stop at, there are more benefits to have by staying in "just 1 more level", which never stops, all the way to 20. So, I'll stick with your original intention, straight monk. As gfunk said, you are severely neglecting CON, the basis of anyone who wants to tango in melee. I'm assuming you are looking for a 9th level build, so here goes: High Elf Mnk9 STR 12 Dex 19 Con 14 Int 13 Wis 16 Cha 8 [I switched Str and Con around. This way you get about 18 more hp, +2 on Fort Saves at the cost of -2 to hit, -2 damage. Imo, your guy was more about disarming, grappling, tripping than straight up damage, and its better to live to do those things another round than stick it to the enemy for a couple more points of damage. I put both ability increases in dex. Since you aren't really pressing things like Stunning Fist, your Wis modifier takes second fiddle to dex, after-all dex boosts Weapon Finesse, Initiative, Ranged Attacks, and Reflex Saves (you have Imp Evasion, might as well make sure it comes in handy). I would put the next increase in Dex and the 2 after that in Wis.] Feats Mnk 1: Improved Grapple 1st: Combat Expertise Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes 3rd: Exotic Weapon Spiked Chain Mnk 6: Improved Trip 6th: Weapon Finesse 9th: Improved Disarm [Since we are going for more of a Dex-build, I added Wpn Finesse at 6th which bumped Imp Disarm to 9th. Expert Tactician is still a good choice for a higher level feat, as is Imp. Initiative (if somewhat lackluster).] Tactics: Ok, things get tricky. Spiked Chain is your friend and primary weapon. With Weapon Finesse and a Dex +2 item we are looking at +12/+7 BAB, not counting the chains enhancement beyond masterwork. The chain should be both magical and made of a special material (Not Adamantine if you plan on riding monk till the end). Probably Cold Iron. Keep in mind you are not in the fight to do damage, you are there to lend support to the rogue with flanks, to trip monsters (when possible), disarm enemies (when possible), and to drop your chain and grapple wizards. Eventually Spring Attack will be a nice path to follow, as with your extreme speed and range you can make excellent use of it. Don't try and be a hero and stick around for a lot of full-attacks (you only get 2 anyway), stay moving, tumble in for an attack (or disarm or trip attempt) and next round tumble out. Be in position to take advantage of AoOs (and remember you can use your AoO to trip the enemy, gaining yet another attack (and possibly a third, with Expert tactician)). While you should try to stay in Spiked Chain reach range, I would carry a Mwk Lt X-bow and some decent bolts just in case. Your dex bonus is sufficient to give you a decent attack bonus with it, and you never know when you may not be able to get to the enemy (yes, even the monk with 60 ft. movement). Your last resort should be your fists. It can still be a nice surprise (and good damage, 1d10) and works especially well in weird situations (jail, bar fight, etc) where your party isn't at full strength. It also makes you a good candidate to infiltrate somewhere as you don't need your weapon to be with you. Also, thanks to 3.5 Weapon Finesse, you still use your dex modifier. Other good weapons to look-out for are Kama, Nunchaku, Sai, and Sianham - all are light and therefore use your Dex mod instead of Str mod. GFunk is right that the Spiked Chain doesn't quite mesh with the phb 3.5 monk, however an enlightened DM may allow you to take a feat that allows a weapon to be considered a monk weapon, at which point 2 of your feats will have paid off big time. Down the Road: While it is extremely tough to gauge when to cut off the monk levels, I think level 13 is a good (if not round) number. You have just acquired Abundant Step (at 12th) and SR 23 (at 13th). For comparison's sake, that SR is better than "Mantle of Spell Resistance" which is valued at 90,000 (and only has SR 21). Your fists are also as powerful as greatswords and while you didn't make it to Quivering Palm or Adamantine Ki Strike, you have a lot of powerful monk abilities (+40 Speed, +2 Inherent AC, Wis to AC, Greater Flurry of Attacks, Improved Evasion, etc). So what's next? Well, fighter levels will let you round out your feat selection, paladin offers a holy path (although keep in mind, your cha sucks), and barbarians offer a buff bad-ass path. I would also keep rogue in mind, if you prefer sneakiness (although the stacking of evasions and never reaching a rogue "special ability" hurts - the rogue's Crippling Strike would be especially nice for this monk). 7 levels of a fighter class (or a combination) offer the best option, allowing your BAB to reach +16 at level 20 (4 attacks, or 6 with Greater Flurry of Blows). Taking 6 levels of fighter will boost your damage (allowing for WF and WS) as well as possibly getting you Whirlwind Attack by 20th level. 7 barbarian levels will net you a few rages per day, culminating in DR 1/-. Paladin levels offer quite a few benefits, but would be difficult with your low Cha. Anyway, I hope some of this was insightful. Have fun! Technik [/QUOTE]
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