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Monk: The Past, Present, and Questionable Future of an Iconic Class
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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 9063527" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>I have to wonder how much you have played monks, based on these comments. </p><p></p><p>Let's start with the social pillar. That's just ... the most bizarre pushback I've ever seen. <em>With great rolls and the right background </em>a Monk can be good??? Well, sure. If hamburgers had the nutritional profile of Brussels sprouts, then maybe we would all be healthier. As I wrote in the OP: "This is a forum. We argue. There will be people that argue to the cows come home that True Strike and Witch Bolt are actually the greatest spells ever if you just have this one specific use-case that they came across in their campaigns."</p><p></p><p>That said, if you ever played monks on any regular basis, you'd understand that this is a laughable comment for a few reasons. First, and most obviously, it would never happen in a point-buy campaign. Second, the right rolls and background they'll be pretty good? You know that Monks need a high dexterity, right? Not want, need. And a high wisdom. Not want, need. And a high constitution. Not want, need. That's three scores. And finally, because of saves, builds, physical attacks, and (ahem) athletics you want strength. That's FOUR ability scores. </p><p></p><p>Which means that every single monk I've ever seen has relatively low charisma and and intelligence. Maybe they don't "dump" it. But they aren't high. Not to mention the monk has no class access to face skills. None. And no class, or even subclass, synergies with charisma.</p><p></p><p>But sure, let's take your Witchbolt scenario. Let's say we are building the Face Monk because we can, and we like to argue on forums despite not really playing monks. Well, then we run into the next issue. See, D&D is a party-based game. And approximately ALL THE OTHER CLASSES are better at this than Monks. I exaggerate for humor, but only slightly. Ever since WoTC decided to elevate Charisma to the mental God Stat (basically, Mental Dexterity), class access to it has exploded. Which means that a ton of people in your party will likely have high charismas, and/or social skills, already. And they will dwarf yours. And they will continue to dwarf the Monks, because they will continue to increase it! That's right, the Warlock, the Paladin, the Bard, and the Sorcerer are all going to be raising their charisma and already have class access to face skills. Do you have one of those in the party? The Rogue has face skills and expertise. Do you have one of those in the party? The Cleric has access to persuasion and proficiency in charisma. Do you have one of those in the party? Even the Fighter and Barbarian have access to intimidation and are less than the Monk. </p><p></p><p>So if you've ever played a Monk, in an actual game, with actual people, you know exactly what I'm talking about. The Monk will always be terrible at the social pillar. Is it possible to build a Monk that is merely "not-terrible" at the social pillar but sacrificing a lot of stuff? Sure. Just like it's possible for True Strike to be an awesome spell.</p><p></p><p>As for the second- again, as you correctly note, acrobatics "is not used that often" ... which is the problem. All of the things that Monks are supposed to be good at are lazily subsumed in Athletics- what, Monks aren't good at running and jumping?????? But because athletics are tied into strength, most monks are not particularly good at it; instead, they are good at an ability that is almost never called for (acrobatics)- and completely forgotten about in the written materials that WoTC makes. Which means that in play, you will continually run into the situation of having an athletics check for your monk (whether it's holding onto a rope, or some other physical feat) that you won't be particularly good at .... because your character is MAD, despite the fact that these checks are almost invariably used in situations that the Monk, of all classes, should excel in. It is simply bizarre that this single ability is bifurcated in such a way, and to the disadvantage of the class that arguably uses it the most. Having a class ability that would allow the Monk to use Rex for athletics checks (or, better, use a single skill slot for both predicated on Dex, but that might cause other people to dip) would fix a lot of the issues with the class and the fiction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 9063527, member: 7023840"] I have to wonder how much you have played monks, based on these comments. Let's start with the social pillar. That's just ... the most bizarre pushback I've ever seen. [I]With great rolls and the right background [/I]a Monk can be good??? Well, sure. If hamburgers had the nutritional profile of Brussels sprouts, then maybe we would all be healthier. As I wrote in the OP: "This is a forum. We argue. There will be people that argue to the cows come home that True Strike and Witch Bolt are actually the greatest spells ever if you just have this one specific use-case that they came across in their campaigns." That said, if you ever played monks on any regular basis, you'd understand that this is a laughable comment for a few reasons. First, and most obviously, it would never happen in a point-buy campaign. Second, the right rolls and background they'll be pretty good? You know that Monks need a high dexterity, right? Not want, need. And a high wisdom. Not want, need. And a high constitution. Not want, need. That's three scores. And finally, because of saves, builds, physical attacks, and (ahem) athletics you want strength. That's FOUR ability scores. Which means that every single monk I've ever seen has relatively low charisma and and intelligence. Maybe they don't "dump" it. But they aren't high. Not to mention the monk has no class access to face skills. None. And no class, or even subclass, synergies with charisma. But sure, let's take your Witchbolt scenario. Let's say we are building the Face Monk because we can, and we like to argue on forums despite not really playing monks. Well, then we run into the next issue. See, D&D is a party-based game. And approximately ALL THE OTHER CLASSES are better at this than Monks. I exaggerate for humor, but only slightly. Ever since WoTC decided to elevate Charisma to the mental God Stat (basically, Mental Dexterity), class access to it has exploded. Which means that a ton of people in your party will likely have high charismas, and/or social skills, already. And they will dwarf yours. And they will continue to dwarf the Monks, because they will continue to increase it! That's right, the Warlock, the Paladin, the Bard, and the Sorcerer are all going to be raising their charisma and already have class access to face skills. Do you have one of those in the party? The Rogue has face skills and expertise. Do you have one of those in the party? The Cleric has access to persuasion and proficiency in charisma. Do you have one of those in the party? Even the Fighter and Barbarian have access to intimidation and are less than the Monk. So if you've ever played a Monk, in an actual game, with actual people, you know exactly what I'm talking about. The Monk will always be terrible at the social pillar. Is it possible to build a Monk that is merely "not-terrible" at the social pillar but sacrificing a lot of stuff? Sure. Just like it's possible for True Strike to be an awesome spell. As for the second- again, as you correctly note, acrobatics "is not used that often" ... which is the problem. All of the things that Monks are supposed to be good at are lazily subsumed in Athletics- what, Monks aren't good at running and jumping?????? But because athletics are tied into strength, most monks are not particularly good at it; instead, they are good at an ability that is almost never called for (acrobatics)- and completely forgotten about in the written materials that WoTC makes. Which means that in play, you will continually run into the situation of having an athletics check for your monk (whether it's holding onto a rope, or some other physical feat) that you won't be particularly good at .... because your character is MAD, despite the fact that these checks are almost invariably used in situations that the Monk, of all classes, should excel in. It is simply bizarre that this single ability is bifurcated in such a way, and to the disadvantage of the class that arguably uses it the most. Having a class ability that would allow the Monk to use Rex for athletics checks (or, better, use a single skill slot for both predicated on Dex, but that might cause other people to dip) would fix a lot of the issues with the class and the fiction. [/QUOTE]
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