Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
Archive Forums
Hosted Forums
Personal & Hosted Forums
Hosted Publisher Forums
Bad Axe Games Hosted Forum
Morale and leadership
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Vespucci" data-source="post: 5554467" data-attributes="member: 6675688"><p>If the Leadership feat is being thrown over (and GOOD RIDDANCE to it), then alternatives should be explored. Leadership was a direct replacement of 2nd Edition AD&D's "instant retainers at about 9th level" rule, and in fairness to the feat, it was an improvement. But just about anything would have been an improvement on the 2e rule! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /> If we go deeper into the history of the hobby, there were alternatives.</p><p></p><p>While the notion of a dump stat didn't exist back then, Moldvay's 1981 Basic D&D rewarded Charismatic characters with superior retainer acquisition and retention abilities. And retainers were important when facing those demanding old school dungeons. The DM was advised not to "allow beginning <em>players</em> to hire retainers [because they] tend to use retainers as a crutch, letting them take all the risks". Emphasis mine - that's not advice to keep 1st level characters from having staff on the pay roll.</p><p></p><p>I suggest making it fairly easy to hire retainers, only requiring a Persuasion check if the PCs attempt to haggle on pay or if they're recruiting to go on an expedition known to be very dangerous. (If they're dishonest about their plans, it's quite reasonable to have retainers demand more money and/or desert on finding out the truth.) Try limiting PCs to no more than 5 + Charisma modifier in retainers, and making it very expensive to hire dungeoneering companions. (A lad to care for the horses, or to monitor comings and goings at a local inn is quite another matter.)</p><p></p><p>A definite consequence of having retainers around is that the DM needs morale rules. Players will complain about you being an arbitrary git if you decide that their under-paid, mistreated retainers run away from their utterly charmless masters when faced by overwhelming odds. On the other hand, they rarely complain about a DM saying things like, "OK, you've taken your first casualty, time for morale checks. Hendricks the bard has -2 on his morale check because you wouldn't go back to town to bury his brother, and another -2 from your Charisma modifier - let's see if he wants to tough it out!"</p><p></p><p>The same player sensibilities will demand morale checks for the opposition. While lying and/or fudging the dice rolls is always an option, I think there's a serious argument for just letting the dice fall where they will.</p><p></p><p>Oh, yes, you'll want some guidelines for morale. OK. I've taken Moldvay's probabilities as a baseline and loosely translated them into the d20 system.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Check morale at the end of any round in which the combat takes a serious turn (e.g. first casualty, half of one side is down, the cavalry arrive, that sort of thing).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The DC of a morale check is 10. Retainers have a modifier equal to their master's Charisma modifier, adjusted for treatment (see the example of Hendricks, above). Other NPCs typically vary from -2 (herbivores, peasants) through 0 (goblins, militia), +2 (predators, soldiers), +5 (hobgoblins and veteran soldiers) to +7 (demons, knights), though other values are certainly possible. Creatures that do not understand death (by default, this includes the PCs <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />) never have to check morale.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When a creature fails a morale check, it's had enough of the fight and will look for a way out in its next action. Unintelligent creatures generally just flee, intelligent foes may attempt to surrender or carry out a more orderly withdrawal.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Once a combatant has made two morale checks successfully, they are prepared to fight until death or victory.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rallying the troops with a Persuasion or Intimidate check is possible. Doing the latter will harm morale in the long run, as will unfulfilled promises.</li> </ul><p>It's probably a good idea to use a Morale check at the end of an expedition (or at any other point when a retainer could resign or desert) to see if they're prepared to carry on in their current line of work.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Vespucci, post: 5554467, member: 6675688"] If the Leadership feat is being thrown over (and GOOD RIDDANCE to it), then alternatives should be explored. Leadership was a direct replacement of 2nd Edition AD&D's "instant retainers at about 9th level" rule, and in fairness to the feat, it was an improvement. But just about anything would have been an improvement on the 2e rule! :p If we go deeper into the history of the hobby, there were alternatives. While the notion of a dump stat didn't exist back then, Moldvay's 1981 Basic D&D rewarded Charismatic characters with superior retainer acquisition and retention abilities. And retainers were important when facing those demanding old school dungeons. The DM was advised not to "allow beginning [I]players[/I] to hire retainers [because they] tend to use retainers as a crutch, letting them take all the risks". Emphasis mine - that's not advice to keep 1st level characters from having staff on the pay roll. I suggest making it fairly easy to hire retainers, only requiring a Persuasion check if the PCs attempt to haggle on pay or if they're recruiting to go on an expedition known to be very dangerous. (If they're dishonest about their plans, it's quite reasonable to have retainers demand more money and/or desert on finding out the truth.) Try limiting PCs to no more than 5 + Charisma modifier in retainers, and making it very expensive to hire dungeoneering companions. (A lad to care for the horses, or to monitor comings and goings at a local inn is quite another matter.) A definite consequence of having retainers around is that the DM needs morale rules. Players will complain about you being an arbitrary git if you decide that their under-paid, mistreated retainers run away from their utterly charmless masters when faced by overwhelming odds. On the other hand, they rarely complain about a DM saying things like, "OK, you've taken your first casualty, time for morale checks. Hendricks the bard has -2 on his morale check because you wouldn't go back to town to bury his brother, and another -2 from your Charisma modifier - let's see if he wants to tough it out!" The same player sensibilities will demand morale checks for the opposition. While lying and/or fudging the dice rolls is always an option, I think there's a serious argument for just letting the dice fall where they will. Oh, yes, you'll want some guidelines for morale. OK. I've taken Moldvay's probabilities as a baseline and loosely translated them into the d20 system. [LIST] [*]Check morale at the end of any round in which the combat takes a serious turn (e.g. first casualty, half of one side is down, the cavalry arrive, that sort of thing). [*]The DC of a morale check is 10. Retainers have a modifier equal to their master's Charisma modifier, adjusted for treatment (see the example of Hendricks, above). Other NPCs typically vary from -2 (herbivores, peasants) through 0 (goblins, militia), +2 (predators, soldiers), +5 (hobgoblins and veteran soldiers) to +7 (demons, knights), though other values are certainly possible. Creatures that do not understand death (by default, this includes the PCs ;)) never have to check morale. [*]When a creature fails a morale check, it's had enough of the fight and will look for a way out in its next action. Unintelligent creatures generally just flee, intelligent foes may attempt to surrender or carry out a more orderly withdrawal. [*]Once a combatant has made two morale checks successfully, they are prepared to fight until death or victory. [*]Rallying the troops with a Persuasion or Intimidate check is possible. Doing the latter will harm morale in the long run, as will unfulfilled promises. [/LIST] It's probably a good idea to use a Morale check at the end of an expedition (or at any other point when a retainer could resign or desert) to see if they're prepared to carry on in their current line of work. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
Archive Forums
Hosted Forums
Personal & Hosted Forums
Hosted Publisher Forums
Bad Axe Games Hosted Forum
Morale and leadership
Top