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Multi classing Objections: Rules vs. Fluff?
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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7468760" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>You bring up some interesting points, and I'd like to address each in turn with a contrasting view:-</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In 5e (and since 3e), there are no 1st level MC characters. This is because of how the game mechanics work: you get one class level per character level, therefore if you only have one character level you can only have one class.</p><p></p><p>Up until then, you either started as a 1st level single class, or as a 1st/1st multi-class, or as a 1st/1st/1st multi-class, and stayed that combination of classes that each got improved relatively equally ('relatively' owing to the different XP tables for each class). The only exception was the (amazingly rare) dual-classed human.</p><p></p><p>Oh, and BECMI had 'elf' and 'dwarf' as <em>classes</em>, where 'elf' was really a fighter/mage.</p><p></p><p>But, they are all D&D. We can expect to create our PCs, using the rules, and craft their story around that resulting character sheet.</p><p></p><p>So, I could be making a PC for BECMI or 1e or 2e. Let's say that, mechanically, he is an elf trained in the arts of magic and war.</p><p></p><p>* in 1e, fighter/magic-user 1/1</p><p></p><p>* in 2e, fighter/mage 1/1</p><p></p><p>* in BECMI, elf 1</p><p></p><p>But it is the same character concept each time: an elf trained in magic and fighting for <em>literally</em> at least 50 years before turning up as a level 1 PC. At least as compelling a justification for his 1st level abilities as any single class wizard or paladin.</p><p></p><p>Great. Now I'll use the same character concept and make a PC in 3.5/PF/5e. If I get to 20th level, I might end up 10/10, or maybe 11/9 or 12/8 or something, but not a 'dip'.</p><p></p><p>We already have decades of D&D experience that this is a perfectly valid concept. There is no reason to forbid it!</p><p></p><p>We also know that, at level 1, he won't be multi-class <em>yet</em>; I have to wait until level 2 minimum. <em>This is not a problem with my concept!</em> This is simply a consequence of the way the levelling rules work!</p><p></p><p>So the objections I see on this forum on the lines of "It takes <em>years</em> to learn to be a level 1 wizard! It doesn't make sense to suddenly gain your 1st level of wizard overnight!" are easily rebutted. The problem here is not that I didn't put in the years of study: I put in 50 years, thank you very much! The problem is that I can only actually <em>use</em> the ability of <em>one</em> of my two classes until I've killed 300xp-worth of goblins!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Let's say you are a paladin, totally dedicated to both you god and your oath. Now let's say you take a level of fighter, or 'dip'...something. "Oh, no!" I hear you cry. "You've abandoned your god and your oath! You've stopped being a paladin!"</p><p></p><p>Rubbish! I'm <em>still</em> a paladin, still loyal and dedicated to my oath and my god. Learning a few combat tricks doesn't change that, developing abilities through my heritage doesn't change my faith, the fact that (unknown to me) my parents bargained my soul to a fiend before I was even born before they abandoned me on the steps of the temple doesn't prevent my from using my paladin abilities in any way. <em>Certainly</em> not rules-wise!</p><p></p><p>So DMs are literally inventing ways to nerf your character choices, by making up increasing desperate 'reasons': MC PCs don't <em>stop</em> being one class when they take a second. Maybe you cannot worship two gods, but there's nothing stopping one patron from trying to subtly corrupt the agent of a good god. Will he be corrupted? See next week's exciting episode! That Pal/War is not an <em>invalid</em> character concept, it's a great one! </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Weren't you listening to a word I just said!</p><p></p><p>Or maybe I could have made wiser choices while quoting. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /> But I addressed this already.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>See! All very reasonable. I just wish more DMs were as reasonable, and fewer resorted to spurious 'reasons' to reject a concept before even listening to your idea.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 7468760, member: 6799649"] You bring up some interesting points, and I'd like to address each in turn with a contrasting view:- In 5e (and since 3e), there are no 1st level MC characters. This is because of how the game mechanics work: you get one class level per character level, therefore if you only have one character level you can only have one class. Up until then, you either started as a 1st level single class, or as a 1st/1st multi-class, or as a 1st/1st/1st multi-class, and stayed that combination of classes that each got improved relatively equally ('relatively' owing to the different XP tables for each class). The only exception was the (amazingly rare) dual-classed human. Oh, and BECMI had 'elf' and 'dwarf' as [i]classes[/i], where 'elf' was really a fighter/mage. But, they are all D&D. We can expect to create our PCs, using the rules, and craft their story around that resulting character sheet. So, I could be making a PC for BECMI or 1e or 2e. Let's say that, mechanically, he is an elf trained in the arts of magic and war. * in 1e, fighter/magic-user 1/1 * in 2e, fighter/mage 1/1 * in BECMI, elf 1 But it is the same character concept each time: an elf trained in magic and fighting for [i]literally[/i] at least 50 years before turning up as a level 1 PC. At least as compelling a justification for his 1st level abilities as any single class wizard or paladin. Great. Now I'll use the same character concept and make a PC in 3.5/PF/5e. If I get to 20th level, I might end up 10/10, or maybe 11/9 or 12/8 or something, but not a 'dip'. We already have decades of D&D experience that this is a perfectly valid concept. There is no reason to forbid it! We also know that, at level 1, he won't be multi-class [i]yet[/i]; I have to wait until level 2 minimum. [i]This is not a problem with my concept![/i] This is simply a consequence of the way the levelling rules work! So the objections I see on this forum on the lines of "It takes [i]years[/i] to learn to be a level 1 wizard! It doesn't make sense to suddenly gain your 1st level of wizard overnight!" are easily rebutted. The problem here is not that I didn't put in the years of study: I put in 50 years, thank you very much! The problem is that I can only actually [i]use[/i] the ability of [i]one[/i] of my two classes until I've killed 300xp-worth of goblins! Let's say you are a paladin, totally dedicated to both you god and your oath. Now let's say you take a level of fighter, or 'dip'...something. "Oh, no!" I hear you cry. "You've abandoned your god and your oath! You've stopped being a paladin!" Rubbish! I'm [i]still[/i] a paladin, still loyal and dedicated to my oath and my god. Learning a few combat tricks doesn't change that, developing abilities through my heritage doesn't change my faith, the fact that (unknown to me) my parents bargained my soul to a fiend before I was even born before they abandoned me on the steps of the temple doesn't prevent my from using my paladin abilities in any way. [i]Certainly[/i] not rules-wise! So DMs are literally inventing ways to nerf your character choices, by making up increasing desperate 'reasons': MC PCs don't [i]stop[/i] being one class when they take a second. Maybe you cannot worship two gods, but there's nothing stopping one patron from trying to subtly corrupt the agent of a good god. Will he be corrupted? See next week's exciting episode! That Pal/War is not an [i]invalid[/i] character concept, it's a great one! Weren't you listening to a word I just said! Or maybe I could have made wiser choices while quoting. :D But I addressed this already. See! All very reasonable. I just wish more DMs were as reasonable, and fewer resorted to spurious 'reasons' to reject a concept before even listening to your idea. [/QUOTE]
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