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Multiclassing Feats & Powers
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<blockquote data-quote="theNater" data-source="post: 4322721" data-attributes="member: 62560"><p>I presume that you mean the prerequisites of the feat. Given that the feat provides more than Skill Training, which is a feat without prerequisites, having a prerequisite is entirely appropriate. Also note that getting a 13 in one stat is not difficult, given that the standard array has a 16, a 14, and a 13. Any character using the standard array qualifies for at least one multiclass feat at level 1.</p><p></p><p>What's the limit? Note that a character fully multiclassed into wizard through feats has 4 spells, not 3.</p><p></p><p>But yes, a character who wishes to multiclass into wizard will have significantly fewer wizard spells than a character who started as a wizard.</p><p></p><p>Your suggestion was that upon taking new powers, they could be from either class. Starting at level 13, when a character acquires a new power, they replace an old power. If they are allowed to take second class powers to replace first class powers, they can have their entire attack power list composed of second class powers by level 19, assuming they also use the power-swap feats.</p><p></p><p>4th edition feats differ from 3rd edition feats. Many of them do help in combat situations, though precisely the effects you suggest are very difficult to come by as they are quite powerful. Skill Training in a combat helpful skill is about as valuable, in combat, as other feats with no prerequisites.</p><p></p><p>Feat means something slightly different in 4th edition than it did in 3rd edition. Comparing 4th edition feats to 3rd edition feats gives an unrealistic expectation to the value of 4th edition feats.</p><p></p><p>True, but you only get powers you want. If a power isn't valuable to you, don't take it. If having lots of powers from the second class is valuable to you, you have to spend to get it. Basic economics.</p><p></p><p>It is, admittedly, not the best example. However, suggesting that the example is wrong is inaccurate, as your second paragraph indicates that you know.</p><p></p><p>Again, even if the one thing is an accident(a claim for which we have very little evidence), it does not necessarily make the other thing an accident(a claim for which we have no evidence).</p><p></p><p>The (2, 4, 4, 7) readout includes your paragon powers. If you use paragon multiclassing, your power readout becomes (1/1, 2/2, 2/2, 4/2/1). If you take a paragon path from the second class, and we count those powers as second class powers, the readout becomes (2/0, 2/2, 2/2, 4/2/1) The format here is first class/second class, with the utility powers including a third spot for the epic destiny utility power.</p><p></p><p>And, as has been discovered in the time since you posted, you can retrain the second class powers gained from paragon multiclassing.</p><p></p><p>Well, yes, and a fighter who can cause all enemies within a hundred miles to instantly drop dead is more impressive still. The point of multiclassing is not open-ended increases in power, it's an increase in flexibility.</p><p></p><p>If you want a fighter who can use Scorching Burst and channel magic through his sword, 4th edition can do that(be a fighter, multiclass to wizard, take the wizard of the spiral tower paragon path). If you want a wizard wearing plate armor and wielding a greataxe, 4th edition can do that, too(be a wizard with good str and con, spend 4 feats work your way up to plate armor. Weapon Proficiency with a greataxe is optional, but at the cost of one feat, it is highly recommended). If you want a character with all the defender capabilities of a fighter and all the controller abilities of a wizard, then no, 4th edition can't do that.</p><p></p><p>I've seen some estimates that a 4th edition combat lasts, on average, 8 rounds. Let's say 10 for easy numbers. Under no circumstances does a character need to save his encounter powers for boss monsters, as there either is a boss monster in the encounter(so the character can target him with encounter powers) or there is no boss monster in the encounter(in which case the character's encounter powers will be back before the encounter with a boss monster in it). So in this hypothetical 10-round combat, the character uses 4 encounter powers and 6 at-will powers, for a 60% use of at-will powers.</p><p></p><p>This estimate is assuming that the character spends no rounds using his standard action to maneuver into position(with a charge or as a second move action), trying special actions like a grab or bull rush, or activating utility powers. The claim that 95% of the time a character will be using at-will powers is not based on anything resembling the reality of the game system.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="theNater, post: 4322721, member: 62560"] I presume that you mean the prerequisites of the feat. Given that the feat provides more than Skill Training, which is a feat without prerequisites, having a prerequisite is entirely appropriate. Also note that getting a 13 in one stat is not difficult, given that the standard array has a 16, a 14, and a 13. Any character using the standard array qualifies for at least one multiclass feat at level 1. What's the limit? Note that a character fully multiclassed into wizard through feats has 4 spells, not 3. But yes, a character who wishes to multiclass into wizard will have significantly fewer wizard spells than a character who started as a wizard. Your suggestion was that upon taking new powers, they could be from either class. Starting at level 13, when a character acquires a new power, they replace an old power. If they are allowed to take second class powers to replace first class powers, they can have their entire attack power list composed of second class powers by level 19, assuming they also use the power-swap feats. 4th edition feats differ from 3rd edition feats. Many of them do help in combat situations, though precisely the effects you suggest are very difficult to come by as they are quite powerful. Skill Training in a combat helpful skill is about as valuable, in combat, as other feats with no prerequisites. Feat means something slightly different in 4th edition than it did in 3rd edition. Comparing 4th edition feats to 3rd edition feats gives an unrealistic expectation to the value of 4th edition feats. True, but you only get powers you want. If a power isn't valuable to you, don't take it. If having lots of powers from the second class is valuable to you, you have to spend to get it. Basic economics. It is, admittedly, not the best example. However, suggesting that the example is wrong is inaccurate, as your second paragraph indicates that you know. Again, even if the one thing is an accident(a claim for which we have very little evidence), it does not necessarily make the other thing an accident(a claim for which we have no evidence). The (2, 4, 4, 7) readout includes your paragon powers. If you use paragon multiclassing, your power readout becomes (1/1, 2/2, 2/2, 4/2/1). If you take a paragon path from the second class, and we count those powers as second class powers, the readout becomes (2/0, 2/2, 2/2, 4/2/1) The format here is first class/second class, with the utility powers including a third spot for the epic destiny utility power. And, as has been discovered in the time since you posted, you can retrain the second class powers gained from paragon multiclassing. Well, yes, and a fighter who can cause all enemies within a hundred miles to instantly drop dead is more impressive still. The point of multiclassing is not open-ended increases in power, it's an increase in flexibility. If you want a fighter who can use Scorching Burst and channel magic through his sword, 4th edition can do that(be a fighter, multiclass to wizard, take the wizard of the spiral tower paragon path). If you want a wizard wearing plate armor and wielding a greataxe, 4th edition can do that, too(be a wizard with good str and con, spend 4 feats work your way up to plate armor. Weapon Proficiency with a greataxe is optional, but at the cost of one feat, it is highly recommended). If you want a character with all the defender capabilities of a fighter and all the controller abilities of a wizard, then no, 4th edition can't do that. I've seen some estimates that a 4th edition combat lasts, on average, 8 rounds. Let's say 10 for easy numbers. Under no circumstances does a character need to save his encounter powers for boss monsters, as there either is a boss monster in the encounter(so the character can target him with encounter powers) or there is no boss monster in the encounter(in which case the character's encounter powers will be back before the encounter with a boss monster in it). So in this hypothetical 10-round combat, the character uses 4 encounter powers and 6 at-will powers, for a 60% use of at-will powers. This estimate is assuming that the character spends no rounds using his standard action to maneuver into position(with a charge or as a second move action), trying special actions like a grab or bull rush, or activating utility powers. The claim that 95% of the time a character will be using at-will powers is not based on anything resembling the reality of the game system. [/QUOTE]
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