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<blockquote data-quote="zookeeper" data-source="post: 4343088" data-attributes="member: 70600"><p>OK - Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you had stated previously that you could swap between classes. Maybe it was someone else.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Gotcha - thought you were trying to say a conditional +1 was better than a permanent +2.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>So what you seem to be saying here is that 4.0 feats make weaker characters. </p><p> </p><p>I know they are different, but comparing a new system with an older one is just nature. You compare the systems to see if it is better. You buy a new computer you compare thier features. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Agreed, but some of the interesting parts of the game were taken out. Example: You have an opponent badly injured, he tries to take a potion you get the AoO on him and possibly take him out. Now; same situation, he drinks his potion and heals some, and continues to take potions until he runs out of them or until knocked out. You lose the possible treasure of obtaining another healing potion because you can't take him out before he swallows it.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Nice example, just one thing - Weapon Focus would apply to a group, not to individual weapons - lol. And actually in your example above, you spent 3 feats to get the happy medium, did you forget you also took Weapon Focus?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Yes, you get better attacks, which was also true in 3.5. An example of my point would be something like: Sam the contractor when he first becomes a contractor takes an hour to build a set of stairs. After building those stairs for a period of time, he can now build 2 sets in the same hour. Yes Sam has gotten more training and experience and even pay for doing this. Now eventually Sam will get to a point where the best he can do is maybe 2 or 3 sets in the hour.</p><p> </p><p>In 4.0 No matter how much training or experience you recieve you can not do any more that what you start at. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I may have no choice; they do not sound like anything I would ever have taken in 3.5. As a fighter why in the blue blazes would you ever consider Linguist - you don't need to communicate to fight you only need to swing your weapons.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>That is a good point, but you probably had 3 or 4 low level spells that you remembered and possibly used occasionally (Magic Missile is a very popular one of those). And from a list that was 100's of spells long, everyone possibly had some trouble remembering lower level spells they didn't use often. Now you're limited to 17 as it is now or 25 if you just learn new without losing old. And as with the 100's you will probably have lower level powers you will remember well. Even 20th level casters popped out Magic Missile occasionally.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>See above paragraph.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Thats not quite true, Improved Disarm let you make the attempt without provoking AoO. And it was almost always bad to try, but the bad parts were the AoO and if the opposed rolls were lower on yours than his, he could attempt an immeadate disarm against you. The feat only took away the AoO. Same type of thing applies to sunder. And just for the record he could achieve these actions without the feats.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I suppose this could be true.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I suppose with the way you worded this, I have to give it to you. I was still thinking Save either effects you or does not depending on made or failed.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Ok - this daels extra (1,2,or 3) damage, does not give you extra turn attempts, more targets, etc. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I'll have to take your word for this. Although a rouge (I still think of as) was the scout, trapfinder, opened locked doors and chests, lifted items off people, and sometimes got into trouble if found on scouting expedition but was usually within a double move action of the other characters.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Not sure. Was thinking about the fighter/wizard combo. But also thinking I might wait and see what the group needs before making character.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>It is not situational, it does not rely on you being next to a wall or only apply if attacked by a giant. It is there all the time, it is a permenant bonus to your fortitude defence and applies anytime your fortitude defence is attacked. It's like your AC, your armor is always there its bonus is always there, even if the opponent attacks your reflex defence your AC is not lower because of it.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>OK - granted. Didn't read all items yet. Still working on all the new rules.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>But you can't stand in the front lines and toss spells (in 3.5) you have spell failure, AoO's, and lower (flat-footed) AC's. If your going to toss spells you would most likely move out of combat or only toss one spell while in combat. (Well actually you could stand in front lines and toss spells around but would not be very good for you.)</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>This would be true of any multiclass you would make a better (insert first class role here) than a (insert your second class name here) unless both classes are of the same role.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="zookeeper, post: 4343088, member: 70600"] OK - Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you had stated previously that you could swap between classes. Maybe it was someone else. Gotcha - thought you were trying to say a conditional +1 was better than a permanent +2. So what you seem to be saying here is that 4.0 feats make weaker characters. I know they are different, but comparing a new system with an older one is just nature. You compare the systems to see if it is better. You buy a new computer you compare thier features. Agreed, but some of the interesting parts of the game were taken out. Example: You have an opponent badly injured, he tries to take a potion you get the AoO on him and possibly take him out. Now; same situation, he drinks his potion and heals some, and continues to take potions until he runs out of them or until knocked out. You lose the possible treasure of obtaining another healing potion because you can't take him out before he swallows it. Nice example, just one thing - Weapon Focus would apply to a group, not to individual weapons - lol. And actually in your example above, you spent 3 feats to get the happy medium, did you forget you also took Weapon Focus? Yes, you get better attacks, which was also true in 3.5. An example of my point would be something like: Sam the contractor when he first becomes a contractor takes an hour to build a set of stairs. After building those stairs for a period of time, he can now build 2 sets in the same hour. Yes Sam has gotten more training and experience and even pay for doing this. Now eventually Sam will get to a point where the best he can do is maybe 2 or 3 sets in the hour. In 4.0 No matter how much training or experience you recieve you can not do any more that what you start at. I may have no choice; they do not sound like anything I would ever have taken in 3.5. As a fighter why in the blue blazes would you ever consider Linguist - you don't need to communicate to fight you only need to swing your weapons. That is a good point, but you probably had 3 or 4 low level spells that you remembered and possibly used occasionally (Magic Missile is a very popular one of those). And from a list that was 100's of spells long, everyone possibly had some trouble remembering lower level spells they didn't use often. Now you're limited to 17 as it is now or 25 if you just learn new without losing old. And as with the 100's you will probably have lower level powers you will remember well. Even 20th level casters popped out Magic Missile occasionally. See above paragraph. Thats not quite true, Improved Disarm let you make the attempt without provoking AoO. And it was almost always bad to try, but the bad parts were the AoO and if the opposed rolls were lower on yours than his, he could attempt an immeadate disarm against you. The feat only took away the AoO. Same type of thing applies to sunder. And just for the record he could achieve these actions without the feats. I suppose this could be true. I suppose with the way you worded this, I have to give it to you. I was still thinking Save either effects you or does not depending on made or failed. Ok - this daels extra (1,2,or 3) damage, does not give you extra turn attempts, more targets, etc. I'll have to take your word for this. Although a rouge (I still think of as) was the scout, trapfinder, opened locked doors and chests, lifted items off people, and sometimes got into trouble if found on scouting expedition but was usually within a double move action of the other characters. Not sure. Was thinking about the fighter/wizard combo. But also thinking I might wait and see what the group needs before making character. It is not situational, it does not rely on you being next to a wall or only apply if attacked by a giant. It is there all the time, it is a permenant bonus to your fortitude defence and applies anytime your fortitude defence is attacked. It's like your AC, your armor is always there its bonus is always there, even if the opponent attacks your reflex defence your AC is not lower because of it. OK - granted. Didn't read all items yet. Still working on all the new rules. But you can't stand in the front lines and toss spells (in 3.5) you have spell failure, AoO's, and lower (flat-footed) AC's. If your going to toss spells you would most likely move out of combat or only toss one spell while in combat. (Well actually you could stand in front lines and toss spells around but would not be very good for you.) This would be true of any multiclass you would make a better (insert first class role here) than a (insert your second class name here) unless both classes are of the same role. [/QUOTE]
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