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My Experiment with 5e - No Classes with Cantrips
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7449343" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>When I talk about "engaging the fiction" I'm not talking about evocative narration. I'm talking about the need to actually declare actions that leverage the ingame situation in rich and perhaps complex ways. For instance, when resolving a PC's persuasion of a NPC by way of a CHA check, the player has to declare actions that actually engage with the established dispositions, interests etc of the NPC - that's how you persuade someone! As opposed to, say, a Suggestion spell, which only engages the saving throw mechanics.</p><p></p><p>You are making assumptions here that don't have to be made. For instance, you are assuming that what is Easy or Nearly Impossible for a low level PC is also Easy or Nearly Impossible for a high level PC. But that assumption doesn't have to be made. (Eg 4e does not work on that assumption.)</p><p></p><p>As far as maintaining interest is concerned - changing the fiction of the ingame situation, and evolving it with level, doesn't require changing the mechanical approach to resolution. (Eg D&D combat doesn't work like that.)</p><p></p><p>EDIT: Saw this after the post I replied to:</p><p></p><p>My examples will be from 4e because that is the version of D&D that I have GMed in the past decade at a range of levels:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">At 10th level, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?301282-Actual-play-examples-balance-between-fiction-and-mechanics" target="_blank">the the challenge is to subdue a water weird in a pool in an old temple, and to tame a bear</a>.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">At 15th level, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?319889-Doppelganger-mayhem-(with-a-long-lead-up)" target="_blank">the challenge is to summon up a magical vortex and control it's destination</a>.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">At 28th level, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?400493-Session-Report-hijinks-in-the-Elemental-Chaos" target="_blank">the challenges included binding Ygorl, Lord of Entropy inside the Crystal of Ebon Flame</a>, and <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?440504-The-Abyss-sealed-the-drow-freed-the-campaign-reaches-its-climax" target="_blank">sealing the Abyss</a>.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">At 30th level, <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque" target="_blank">the challenges included negotiating with Yan-C-Bin and his court of djinni</a>.</p><p></p><p>The things that characters of legendary power can do are different from the things that ordinary characters can do.</p><p></p><p>That's not an S&S game, but there is nothing about S&S that precludes the scope of possible action expanding with level. Conan in The Phoenix on the Sword can make contact with, and wield the power bestowed by, Epemitreus the Sage. He wasn't doing that in Tower of the Elephant. Forging mighty weapons; striking terror into ancient tyrants resurrected; scaling impossibly high mountains to rescue captives from evil sorcerors; closing gates to the nether world: these would be some of the things that higher level PCs might do with their skills in a S&S game, that are simply not possible for low level ones.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7449343, member: 42582"] When I talk about "engaging the fiction" I'm not talking about evocative narration. I'm talking about the need to actually declare actions that leverage the ingame situation in rich and perhaps complex ways. For instance, when resolving a PC's persuasion of a NPC by way of a CHA check, the player has to declare actions that actually engage with the established dispositions, interests etc of the NPC - that's how you persuade someone! As opposed to, say, a Suggestion spell, which only engages the saving throw mechanics. You are making assumptions here that don't have to be made. For instance, you are assuming that what is Easy or Nearly Impossible for a low level PC is also Easy or Nearly Impossible for a high level PC. But that assumption doesn't have to be made. (Eg 4e does not work on that assumption.) As far as maintaining interest is concerned - changing the fiction of the ingame situation, and evolving it with level, doesn't require changing the mechanical approach to resolution. (Eg D&D combat doesn't work like that.) EDIT: Saw this after the post I replied to: My examples will be from 4e because that is the version of D&D that I have GMed in the past decade at a range of levels: [indent]At 10th level, [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?301282-Actual-play-examples-balance-between-fiction-and-mechanics]the the challenge is to subdue a water weird in a pool in an old temple, and to tame a bear[/url]. At 15th level, [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?319889-Doppelganger-mayhem-(with-a-long-lead-up)]the challenge is to summon up a magical vortex and control it's destination[/url]. At 28th level, [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?400493-Session-Report-hijinks-in-the-Elemental-Chaos]the challenges included binding Ygorl, Lord of Entropy inside the Crystal of Ebon Flame[/url], and [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?440504-The-Abyss-sealed-the-drow-freed-the-campaign-reaches-its-climax]sealing the Abyss[/url]. At 30th level, [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?490454-Session-report-reposted-PCs-stave-of-the-Dusk-War-by-negotiating-with-Yan-C-Bin-and-defeating-the-tarrasque]the challenges included negotiating with Yan-C-Bin and his court of djinni[/url].[/indent] The things that characters of legendary power can do are different from the things that ordinary characters can do. That's not an S&S game, but there is nothing about S&S that precludes the scope of possible action expanding with level. Conan in The Phoenix on the Sword can make contact with, and wield the power bestowed by, Epemitreus the Sage. He wasn't doing that in Tower of the Elephant. Forging mighty weapons; striking terror into ancient tyrants resurrected; scaling impossibly high mountains to rescue captives from evil sorcerors; closing gates to the nether world: these would be some of the things that higher level PCs might do with their skills in a S&S game, that are simply not possible for low level ones. [/QUOTE]
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