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My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)
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<blockquote data-quote="Zimri" data-source="post: 1565585" data-attributes="member: 15991"><p>The paladin's honor as it is (or should be) a huge part of what makes him who he is. But neither needed to be in jeopardy.</p><p></p><p>Grabbing the perp and hauling or tossing him away from the child negates the "what if he quickdrew and killed her" argument</p><p></p><p>Seeing a decapitation isn't severe for a 10 year old ? Having your now dead and headless abuser fall on to your tied body spewing blood all over you isn't traumatizing ? I am pretty sure there were a lot of people traumatized recently by watching a video of a decapitation I am pretty sure this would be worse, and she doesn't have the option to look away.</p><p></p><p>The move may have been tactically superior but it was also dishonorable the end does not ustify the means. Protecting the child would be accomplished by dragging or tossing the perp from the room and then dealing with it and then the paladin would have remained honorable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Clumsy trap ? Come now numerous posters have seen more than a couple viable ways to have handled the encounter without bringing the paladin's (and his companion's, church's and God's) reputation into the mix.</p><p></p><p>Yup he trolled the bait of a suspiscious stranger slinking off to a back room because that NEVER happens in a bar. The warning seemed like a DM warning a player that there would be </p><p></p><p>consequences for killing an unarmed, unaware, commoner. We can't know what would have happened ahd the paladin acted with more honor. If this was a test than the paladin failed.</p><p></p><p>Irredeemable evil ? like say perhaps a Drow ? The cause of good is not served when Good men and women replace that which is moral with that which is easy</p><p></p><p>We are too redeeming a mind flayer 3 to be exact. A mindflayer we killed had 3 babies in an extradimensional space he was carrying when we killed him. There was an entire game sessions worth of debate among the players as to what we should do. End result the Psion that got the robe is a father, we are feeding them eels for now, and will care for them until they can care for themselves. They will be taught by us and by a tutor at a school we will be setting up for orphans. These children are not evil until they perpetrate an evil act willingly. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Umm no see a demigorgon chowing down on an orphanage is a clear and present danger to life and limb of orphans and those that care for them. As heinous as the intended rape was (and ohh believe me I think it was) the victim wasn't going to be worse off for the paladin subduing or tossing away the perp.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Kind of hard for him to threaten her if as your warning you picked him up and hauled or tossed him from the room. He won't be scampering away either not in a bar filled with the paladins companions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Grab him and haul or toss him away from the child while he is unaware of your presence. The girl is saved from the rape, saved from retalliation for him knowing you were there and your honor is intact. Then you accuse him of his crimes tell him he can choose to surrender his life to you, surrender to the town magistrate, or choose trial by combat. If this is the sort of place where his actions won't be met with a justice that is similar to your deity's version of justice option 2 can be stricken from the list.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No a CG character would not be punished. Acting swiftly without forethought is a chaotic thing. Killing a rapist is not an evil thing. Doing it from behind is not honorable. Paladins are held to a stricter code of ethics and morality than a CG or even LG fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Heck can't seem to even just toss the perpetrator away so he doesn't harm the girl anymore then deal with him face to face like an honorable person would. Guy wouldn't even be getting a chance to scramble away through the bar ya know why ... the rest of the party was in the bar. Even if HE didn't notice an armed and armoured paladin sneaking up behind him I am pretty sure the party would have seen the paladin slink off.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am aware that there is no combat facing, however in the description of the event the paladin IS behind the perp. (I also find the idea of no facing laughable we use it but we don't much like it) How can the perp be at the same time looking at the girl and the paladin when they are on opposite sides of him. The rule should be something like there is no combat penalty for not facing (all of) your opponent(s). It was funny we ran into a baslisk and I told my DM okay "I hide my eyes and move behind it" "you can't be behind it there is no facing" "Oh so it has eyes all around it's head then ?" </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am currently playing though I have Dmed in the past (15 years). I have had paladins under me and yes I tested them with morally ambigous situations. If they failed then they atoned and it wasn't that big a deal few did though because we talked about what I interpreted the rules as. My current character (a LN monk) Is fairly upset with the parties Psychic Warrior for killing a foe that surrendered to her (the monk).</p><p></p><p>I am less adversarial in RL than I am here. As stated I speak with those that play under me and let them know what is expected. If something comes up that wasn't covered and they disagree with me I will listen. I probably won't mitigate entirely any punishment but I will use it to further the storyline, they will end up getting something out of it eventually, and they get to be the focus of a story arc.</p><p></p><p>That and yeah I like playing devil's advocate but honestly my belief is that if a paladin has not honor he has nothing. I don't think this act was honorable and I can see many better ways out of it that save the girl, punish the perp, and keep the paladin's honor intact.</p><p></p><p>WOW that was long I wonder how many pages cropped up while I did all that,</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zimri, post: 1565585, member: 15991"] The paladin's honor as it is (or should be) a huge part of what makes him who he is. But neither needed to be in jeopardy. Grabbing the perp and hauling or tossing him away from the child negates the "what if he quickdrew and killed her" argument Seeing a decapitation isn't severe for a 10 year old ? Having your now dead and headless abuser fall on to your tied body spewing blood all over you isn't traumatizing ? I am pretty sure there were a lot of people traumatized recently by watching a video of a decapitation I am pretty sure this would be worse, and she doesn't have the option to look away. The move may have been tactically superior but it was also dishonorable the end does not ustify the means. Protecting the child would be accomplished by dragging or tossing the perp from the room and then dealing with it and then the paladin would have remained honorable. Clumsy trap ? Come now numerous posters have seen more than a couple viable ways to have handled the encounter without bringing the paladin's (and his companion's, church's and God's) reputation into the mix. Yup he trolled the bait of a suspiscious stranger slinking off to a back room because that NEVER happens in a bar. The warning seemed like a DM warning a player that there would be consequences for killing an unarmed, unaware, commoner. We can't know what would have happened ahd the paladin acted with more honor. If this was a test than the paladin failed. Irredeemable evil ? like say perhaps a Drow ? The cause of good is not served when Good men and women replace that which is moral with that which is easy We are too redeeming a mind flayer 3 to be exact. A mindflayer we killed had 3 babies in an extradimensional space he was carrying when we killed him. There was an entire game sessions worth of debate among the players as to what we should do. End result the Psion that got the robe is a father, we are feeding them eels for now, and will care for them until they can care for themselves. They will be taught by us and by a tutor at a school we will be setting up for orphans. These children are not evil until they perpetrate an evil act willingly. Umm no see a demigorgon chowing down on an orphanage is a clear and present danger to life and limb of orphans and those that care for them. As heinous as the intended rape was (and ohh believe me I think it was) the victim wasn't going to be worse off for the paladin subduing or tossing away the perp. Kind of hard for him to threaten her if as your warning you picked him up and hauled or tossed him from the room. He won't be scampering away either not in a bar filled with the paladins companions. Grab him and haul or toss him away from the child while he is unaware of your presence. The girl is saved from the rape, saved from retalliation for him knowing you were there and your honor is intact. Then you accuse him of his crimes tell him he can choose to surrender his life to you, surrender to the town magistrate, or choose trial by combat. If this is the sort of place where his actions won't be met with a justice that is similar to your deity's version of justice option 2 can be stricken from the list. No a CG character would not be punished. Acting swiftly without forethought is a chaotic thing. Killing a rapist is not an evil thing. Doing it from behind is not honorable. Paladins are held to a stricter code of ethics and morality than a CG or even LG fighter. Heck can't seem to even just toss the perpetrator away so he doesn't harm the girl anymore then deal with him face to face like an honorable person would. Guy wouldn't even be getting a chance to scramble away through the bar ya know why ... the rest of the party was in the bar. Even if HE didn't notice an armed and armoured paladin sneaking up behind him I am pretty sure the party would have seen the paladin slink off. I am aware that there is no combat facing, however in the description of the event the paladin IS behind the perp. (I also find the idea of no facing laughable we use it but we don't much like it) How can the perp be at the same time looking at the girl and the paladin when they are on opposite sides of him. The rule should be something like there is no combat penalty for not facing (all of) your opponent(s). It was funny we ran into a baslisk and I told my DM okay "I hide my eyes and move behind it" "you can't be behind it there is no facing" "Oh so it has eyes all around it's head then ?" I am currently playing though I have Dmed in the past (15 years). I have had paladins under me and yes I tested them with morally ambigous situations. If they failed then they atoned and it wasn't that big a deal few did though because we talked about what I interpreted the rules as. My current character (a LN monk) Is fairly upset with the parties Psychic Warrior for killing a foe that surrendered to her (the monk). I am less adversarial in RL than I am here. As stated I speak with those that play under me and let them know what is expected. If something comes up that wasn't covered and they disagree with me I will listen. I probably won't mitigate entirely any punishment but I will use it to further the storyline, they will end up getting something out of it eventually, and they get to be the focus of a story arc. That and yeah I like playing devil's advocate but honestly my belief is that if a paladin has not honor he has nothing. I don't think this act was honorable and I can see many better ways out of it that save the girl, punish the perp, and keep the paladin's honor intact. WOW that was long I wonder how many pages cropped up while I did all that, [/QUOTE]
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