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My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)
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<blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1565763" data-attributes="member: 5171"><p>Ditto the "No Punishment" folks.</p><p></p><p>Mostly for the same reasons Henry mentioned: the paladin is the representative of his Lawful Good god. As long as he's a paladin, he isn't going to smite anybody who doesn't (in his judgment at the time) deserve it. As long as he still has his powers, everyone in the world will know that he acted in a faithful way.</p><p></p><p>Cowardice: No. He didn't sneak in. He just didn't announce himself. He is allowed to announce himself, but not required to do so, especially if he believes that the situation would become bad by him doing so -- the paladin entering the evil wizard's lair doesn't have to ring the bell. Stealth is a completely valid option, and striking by surprise is honorable unless you're talking about duels. Paladins have the option of delaying their initiative to wait until attacked, but they also have the allowance of making their own judgment. A kid's life could have been at stake.</p><p></p><p>Unarmed: You know, if this were true, then the best way for an evil cleric to defeat a paladin is to have one his his suicidal henchmen run up to the paladin with a greatsword and then, as the paladin begins to swing, the henchman drops his weapon and turns around. Bam! Instant loss of paladinship. The unarmed thing is just good tactics on the paladin's part. Again, he had the OPTION of attacking unarmed as well, or letting the molester get a weapon, but he is not required to do so.</p><p></p><p>Minimal Force: I agree with the person that says that the DM wants to play both sides, here. If you're playing in a gritty world where graphic evidence of sexual assault is presented, then the paladin shouldn't be given lip about killing those evil people when they are clearly caught in the process of beginning to commit the same crime again. You want a Lawful Good person who specialized in subdual damage? Play a monk. Monks can do subdual all over the place. Unless you're playing in a modern-ish low-death world where</p><p>the PCs aren't supposed to ever try to kill the bad guys, then there's no problem here. (Note: My PCs are in a d20 Modern world. They're government agents. They do Treat Injury checks after shooting bad guys. The difference between this and a fantasy world is huge. And Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world.)</p><p></p><p>So, no. No punishment. Sure, it would have been better if the 5th level paladin had True Seeing active, so that he could clearly make sure that the bad guy wasn't actually a celestial, and the kid wasn't a demon using an illusion to throw the paladin off. It would have been better if the 5th level paladin used all his powerful divination abilities to make sure that the guy wasn't mind-controlled or under the suggestion that the kid is actually his girlfriend, who likes it rough. You know what would've been fantastic? If the paladin had cast Wish to go back in time and stop the bad guy from doing this in the first place! That would have been awesome!</p><p></p><p>Except that, like all the other options, it wasn't really within the paladin's abilities at the time, so he had to go by the evidence he saw. And he believed at the time that killing the guy was the most righteous action. Case closed. If the paladin is consistently or egregiously wrong, overlooking clear evidence or compelling arguments to the contrary, then that becomes a different issue. But I don't see it here.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="takyris, post: 1565763, member: 5171"] Ditto the "No Punishment" folks. Mostly for the same reasons Henry mentioned: the paladin is the representative of his Lawful Good god. As long as he's a paladin, he isn't going to smite anybody who doesn't (in his judgment at the time) deserve it. As long as he still has his powers, everyone in the world will know that he acted in a faithful way. Cowardice: No. He didn't sneak in. He just didn't announce himself. He is allowed to announce himself, but not required to do so, especially if he believes that the situation would become bad by him doing so -- the paladin entering the evil wizard's lair doesn't have to ring the bell. Stealth is a completely valid option, and striking by surprise is honorable unless you're talking about duels. Paladins have the option of delaying their initiative to wait until attacked, but they also have the allowance of making their own judgment. A kid's life could have been at stake. Unarmed: You know, if this were true, then the best way for an evil cleric to defeat a paladin is to have one his his suicidal henchmen run up to the paladin with a greatsword and then, as the paladin begins to swing, the henchman drops his weapon and turns around. Bam! Instant loss of paladinship. The unarmed thing is just good tactics on the paladin's part. Again, he had the OPTION of attacking unarmed as well, or letting the molester get a weapon, but he is not required to do so. Minimal Force: I agree with the person that says that the DM wants to play both sides, here. If you're playing in a gritty world where graphic evidence of sexual assault is presented, then the paladin shouldn't be given lip about killing those evil people when they are clearly caught in the process of beginning to commit the same crime again. You want a Lawful Good person who specialized in subdual damage? Play a monk. Monks can do subdual all over the place. Unless you're playing in a modern-ish low-death world where the PCs aren't supposed to ever try to kill the bad guys, then there's no problem here. (Note: My PCs are in a d20 Modern world. They're government agents. They do Treat Injury checks after shooting bad guys. The difference between this and a fantasy world is huge. And Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world.) So, no. No punishment. Sure, it would have been better if the 5th level paladin had True Seeing active, so that he could clearly make sure that the bad guy wasn't actually a celestial, and the kid wasn't a demon using an illusion to throw the paladin off. It would have been better if the 5th level paladin used all his powerful divination abilities to make sure that the guy wasn't mind-controlled or under the suggestion that the kid is actually his girlfriend, who likes it rough. You know what would've been fantastic? If the paladin had cast Wish to go back in time and stop the bad guy from doing this in the first place! That would have been awesome! Except that, like all the other options, it wasn't really within the paladin's abilities at the time, so he had to go by the evidence he saw. And he believed at the time that killing the guy was the most righteous action. Case closed. If the paladin is consistently or egregiously wrong, overlooking clear evidence or compelling arguments to the contrary, then that becomes a different issue. But I don't see it here. [/QUOTE]
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