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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5862820" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>It's a common problem. The usual contributers are:</p><p></p><p>a) Perceptions of immunity on the part of the PC's. They basically feel that they can get away with anything. DM's often encourage this for fear of ruining the campaign or alienating friends.</p><p>b) Acting out empowerment fantasies. Any RPG can have an element of empowerment fantasies, and players can feel a thrill out of violating prohibitions and taboos that they wouldn't break in real life. Sometimes you find players that enjoy playing characters that are almost the exact opposite of themselves in real life.</p><p>c) Natural disposition. I'm sure this will be contriversial, but just as you have characters that like playing the opposite of themselves, you also have characters who can only play themselves - and sometimes you find out they are pretty nasty peices of work. Real life may constrain people with violent dispositions to rational choices, but games do not and in fact pretty much encourage let it all hang out.</p><p>d) Gamist thinking. Most players end up approaching a game ultimately with a mindset of 'winning', and this tends to get players focused on a purely pragmatic mindset that can generously be called 'neutral ruthless'. These players have characters with moral limits, but who generally won't let moral niceties get in the way of doing anything that they think has a higher purpose.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have never been at a table where they didn't have alignment where at a table where they did I wouldn't have classified every PC as evil. I have from experience rather the opposite view that you do. Deprived of any label or systematic description of their character (whether alignment or some other 'artificial' constraint), players tend to treat their character as a game peice whose personality is shaped only by the necessity of winning.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Some? I would vote for 'all'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I ran a similar table for a while. Novice gamers almost always get into character more quickly than older ones, and female gamers in particular seem to enjoy strong roles.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. I'd avoid metagaming at all; neither pander nor punish for any sort of out of game reason. Rather, let things take their natural course. If they gain a reputation for ruthlessness, they'll be feared - and fearful people are irrational. If they do harm to others, they'll be the objects of hate and people will plot vengeance. If they break the law, then they'll become enemies of the law and soon distrusted throughout civilized lands. They live in a world where the ordinaries are used to demigods rampaging around brutalizing them; they shouldn't be surprised if those ordinaries have brutal countermeasures.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would guess that at some level, there are still things the players consider out of bounds. In my experience 80% of players gravitate to a 'neutral' or 'unaligned' (if you prefer the newer term) morality that can be either ruthless or heroic, but shrinks from getting too far to either side regardless of what they put on their character sheet. It's in my opinion always worthwhile to tell stories that highlight moral difficulties, ambiguities, the difficulty of walking the path of light, and the danger of not doing so.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5862820, member: 4937"] It's a common problem. The usual contributers are: a) Perceptions of immunity on the part of the PC's. They basically feel that they can get away with anything. DM's often encourage this for fear of ruining the campaign or alienating friends. b) Acting out empowerment fantasies. Any RPG can have an element of empowerment fantasies, and players can feel a thrill out of violating prohibitions and taboos that they wouldn't break in real life. Sometimes you find players that enjoy playing characters that are almost the exact opposite of themselves in real life. c) Natural disposition. I'm sure this will be contriversial, but just as you have characters that like playing the opposite of themselves, you also have characters who can only play themselves - and sometimes you find out they are pretty nasty peices of work. Real life may constrain people with violent dispositions to rational choices, but games do not and in fact pretty much encourage let it all hang out. d) Gamist thinking. Most players end up approaching a game ultimately with a mindset of 'winning', and this tends to get players focused on a purely pragmatic mindset that can generously be called 'neutral ruthless'. These players have characters with moral limits, but who generally won't let moral niceties get in the way of doing anything that they think has a higher purpose. I have never been at a table where they didn't have alignment where at a table where they did I wouldn't have classified every PC as evil. I have from experience rather the opposite view that you do. Deprived of any label or systematic description of their character (whether alignment or some other 'artificial' constraint), players tend to treat their character as a game peice whose personality is shaped only by the necessity of winning. Some? I would vote for 'all'. I ran a similar table for a while. Novice gamers almost always get into character more quickly than older ones, and female gamers in particular seem to enjoy strong roles. No. I'd avoid metagaming at all; neither pander nor punish for any sort of out of game reason. Rather, let things take their natural course. If they gain a reputation for ruthlessness, they'll be feared - and fearful people are irrational. If they do harm to others, they'll be the objects of hate and people will plot vengeance. If they break the law, then they'll become enemies of the law and soon distrusted throughout civilized lands. They live in a world where the ordinaries are used to demigods rampaging around brutalizing them; they shouldn't be surprised if those ordinaries have brutal countermeasures. I would guess that at some level, there are still things the players consider out of bounds. In my experience 80% of players gravitate to a 'neutral' or 'unaligned' (if you prefer the newer term) morality that can be either ruthless or heroic, but shrinks from getting too far to either side regardless of what they put on their character sheet. It's in my opinion always worthwhile to tell stories that highlight moral difficulties, ambiguities, the difficulty of walking the path of light, and the danger of not doing so. [/QUOTE]
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