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Natural Weapons, How Much Value Is There To Actually Having Them?
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<blockquote data-quote="ReshiIRE" data-source="post: 9189926" data-attributes="member: 7031231"><p>Depends on the methodology and what features you give them, the weight / value of each of those features, and how they tie into the theme of the ancestry - and that's without considering the limitations or requirements of the game balance.</p><p></p><p>There is also the fact that people will often pick ancestry more for character feel, lore, aesthetic etc. rather than pure mechanics.</p><p></p><p>Like anything in game design, it's not easy, and it's clear that 5e doesn't have specific mechanical guidelines or designs for what an ancestry should be, how they are set up, and where their power should lie. There is such a wide depth and breadth of different mechanics used in them that I'd almost say that for Wizards, there really aren't guidelines for what features are allowed or not allowed.</p><p></p><p>That's how you can end up with the original printing of Dragonborn and Yuan-Ti in the same game; why you can end up with Lizardfolk and Variant Human in the same game; etc.</p><p></p><p>So it's quite hard, particularly with how 5e is designed. If ancestries had specific limits and guides as to what features are suitable for their choice, it'd be easier to balance them all.</p><p></p><p><em>That being said, </em>I would say overall, because of what I mentioned before about why people pick ancestries and other balance factors, the balance of different ancestries is not a significant concern in 5e compared to other balance issues or issues of design; especially with the free choice in Ability Score Boosts, how weak or strong each ancestry choice is pales in comparison to the issues present between different classes and the martial / caster divide*. </p><p></p><p>Because of this, while it would be nice for ancestries to be more balanced, it is in my opinion the least significant design issue, and arguably for the space that 5e wants to hit, I honestly feel that ancestry choice is a good mix of simple and complex; there is real meat in all aspects of the game to that choice, particularly depending on how you run the game at your table; depending on what you want out of the game, there are real lore or setting implications about the difference between being an elf and being a dragonborn, that players and DMs may want to explore, etc. With ancestry as well being one of the most major points of player expression outside of class, and often more apparent or important for quite a lot of roleplay, choosing the most 'mechanically best' ancestry is a much less obvious factor; I would not be surprised if quite a lot of players who otherwise pick optimal class, spell, item etc. choices will stick pick a 'subpar' ancestry because it appeals to them.</p><p></p><p>That is why, while it would be cool for Natural Weapons to be more generally useful and worth more of a consideration**, I think overall 5e has gotten ancestries right mechanically, in terms of what the system design wants to do.</p><p></p><p>* I DON'T WANT TO TURN THIS THREAD INTO A DISCUSSION ON THIS. I AM MAKING A POINT ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC TOPIC OF ANCESTRY BALANCE.</p><p></p><p>** in my opinion, the biggest issue is how Unarmed Attacks in general are handled in 5e and in Monks specifically, rather than an issue with Natural Weapons tehemselves. They are a weak option in general that should be able to be boosted through something. Sure, that'll probably introduce more complex mechanics, but I don't think it'd be a sin to have more codified ways to use Unarmed Attacks specifically. It gives an interesting choice: weapons are simpler, tend to do more damage, and fit into nice places, but classes that boost Unarmed attacks and ancestries with special Natural Weapons get access to different manuvers to deal with their foes. Wouldn't that be nice?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ReshiIRE, post: 9189926, member: 7031231"] Depends on the methodology and what features you give them, the weight / value of each of those features, and how they tie into the theme of the ancestry - and that's without considering the limitations or requirements of the game balance. There is also the fact that people will often pick ancestry more for character feel, lore, aesthetic etc. rather than pure mechanics. Like anything in game design, it's not easy, and it's clear that 5e doesn't have specific mechanical guidelines or designs for what an ancestry should be, how they are set up, and where their power should lie. There is such a wide depth and breadth of different mechanics used in them that I'd almost say that for Wizards, there really aren't guidelines for what features are allowed or not allowed. That's how you can end up with the original printing of Dragonborn and Yuan-Ti in the same game; why you can end up with Lizardfolk and Variant Human in the same game; etc. So it's quite hard, particularly with how 5e is designed. If ancestries had specific limits and guides as to what features are suitable for their choice, it'd be easier to balance them all. [I]That being said, [/I]I would say overall, because of what I mentioned before about why people pick ancestries and other balance factors, the balance of different ancestries is not a significant concern in 5e compared to other balance issues or issues of design; especially with the free choice in Ability Score Boosts, how weak or strong each ancestry choice is pales in comparison to the issues present between different classes and the martial / caster divide*. Because of this, while it would be nice for ancestries to be more balanced, it is in my opinion the least significant design issue, and arguably for the space that 5e wants to hit, I honestly feel that ancestry choice is a good mix of simple and complex; there is real meat in all aspects of the game to that choice, particularly depending on how you run the game at your table; depending on what you want out of the game, there are real lore or setting implications about the difference between being an elf and being a dragonborn, that players and DMs may want to explore, etc. With ancestry as well being one of the most major points of player expression outside of class, and often more apparent or important for quite a lot of roleplay, choosing the most 'mechanically best' ancestry is a much less obvious factor; I would not be surprised if quite a lot of players who otherwise pick optimal class, spell, item etc. choices will stick pick a 'subpar' ancestry because it appeals to them. That is why, while it would be cool for Natural Weapons to be more generally useful and worth more of a consideration**, I think overall 5e has gotten ancestries right mechanically, in terms of what the system design wants to do. * I DON'T WANT TO TURN THIS THREAD INTO A DISCUSSION ON THIS. I AM MAKING A POINT ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC TOPIC OF ANCESTRY BALANCE. ** in my opinion, the biggest issue is how Unarmed Attacks in general are handled in 5e and in Monks specifically, rather than an issue with Natural Weapons tehemselves. They are a weak option in general that should be able to be boosted through something. Sure, that'll probably introduce more complex mechanics, but I don't think it'd be a sin to have more codified ways to use Unarmed Attacks specifically. It gives an interesting choice: weapons are simpler, tend to do more damage, and fit into nice places, but classes that boost Unarmed attacks and ancestries with special Natural Weapons get access to different manuvers to deal with their foes. Wouldn't that be nice? [/QUOTE]
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