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Neandertal's? 'dem dere's orcs!!!
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<blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 2474949" data-attributes="member: 2205"><p>Tolkien's concept of orcs goes back much farther than that, though, and he's specifically and emphatically rejected any such notions of real world "current" events coloring the <em>Lord of the Rings</em> in any way.</p><p></p><p>It's always been my strong impression that Tolkien's descriptions of orcs had a very strong correspondence with early Roman descriptions of the Huns, and that was the source of the descriptions.</p><p></p><p>And although technically Britain and Japan were at war in WW2, did they actually have much action together? I've always been under the impression that almost all of the British action was against the Germans.</p><p></p><p>mythusmage; I'm really curious where you got that derivation of orc/Orcus. Please share your source! From everything I've ever seen of the origin of the word orc (and I've done a fair amount of digging) that background you present is (to put it kindly) completely speculative. Orcus himself is believed to come from an Etruscan tradition, not Germanic. But I'd love to see who came up with that ancient Germanic heritage for the word orc. I also really want to see what other chansons supposedly feature the word; I've only ever heard of it in <em>Orlando Furioso</em>.</p><p></p><p>trancejeremy; there is absolutely no way that anthropologists could possibly determine that Neandertals were less warlike or aggressive than modern humans other than looking at the incidence of violent death on the skeletons, etc. And based on <em>that</em>, if anything, Neanderthals were <em>more</em> aggressive than modern humans and suffered a much higher degree of injury, although they've usually been interpreted as hunting related, not warfare related. It is true that there have been folks who have succumbed to the temptation to paint Neanderthals as a kind of idealised, Utopian "noble savage" or hippy (heck, Björn Kurten himself did it of all people), but that same temptation has been present with every type of primitive human society, so I don't think it means anything particularly. As to why they went extinct, that's a speculative morass. Genocide by modern humans is the polar opposite of the other popular theory; that Neanderthals were merely genetically swamped when the two groups intermingled. Granted, mtDNA studies on Neanderthal bones in recent years seem to have set that theory back a bit, but it hasn't gone away. And there are other theories out there as well; all of them just as likely and just as speculative, as near as I can tell.</p><p></p><p>As to (one of) Spooney's original questions, yes, I have quite often looked to combining the roles of Neanderthals and orcs in campaigns I developed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Desdichado, post: 2474949, member: 2205"] Tolkien's concept of orcs goes back much farther than that, though, and he's specifically and emphatically rejected any such notions of real world "current" events coloring the [i]Lord of the Rings[/i] in any way. It's always been my strong impression that Tolkien's descriptions of orcs had a very strong correspondence with early Roman descriptions of the Huns, and that was the source of the descriptions. And although technically Britain and Japan were at war in WW2, did they actually have much action together? I've always been under the impression that almost all of the British action was against the Germans. mythusmage; I'm really curious where you got that derivation of orc/Orcus. Please share your source! From everything I've ever seen of the origin of the word orc (and I've done a fair amount of digging) that background you present is (to put it kindly) completely speculative. Orcus himself is believed to come from an Etruscan tradition, not Germanic. But I'd love to see who came up with that ancient Germanic heritage for the word orc. I also really want to see what other chansons supposedly feature the word; I've only ever heard of it in [i]Orlando Furioso[/i]. trancejeremy; there is absolutely no way that anthropologists could possibly determine that Neandertals were less warlike or aggressive than modern humans other than looking at the incidence of violent death on the skeletons, etc. And based on [i]that[/i], if anything, Neanderthals were [i]more[/i] aggressive than modern humans and suffered a much higher degree of injury, although they've usually been interpreted as hunting related, not warfare related. It is true that there have been folks who have succumbed to the temptation to paint Neanderthals as a kind of idealised, Utopian "noble savage" or hippy (heck, Björn Kurten himself did it of all people), but that same temptation has been present with every type of primitive human society, so I don't think it means anything particularly. As to why they went extinct, that's a speculative morass. Genocide by modern humans is the polar opposite of the other popular theory; that Neanderthals were merely genetically swamped when the two groups intermingled. Granted, mtDNA studies on Neanderthal bones in recent years seem to have set that theory back a bit, but it hasn't gone away. And there are other theories out there as well; all of them just as likely and just as speculative, as near as I can tell. As to (one of) Spooney's original questions, yes, I have quite often looked to combining the roles of Neanderthals and orcs in campaigns I developed. [/QUOTE]
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