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Need help - re-costing OLD spells
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<blockquote data-quote="BlckKnght" data-source="post: 7827515" data-attributes="member: 6958254"><p>All right, here's the rest of the spells:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Field of Weakness: 9-12 MP: 4 MP drain attribute, 3 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration with contingency (1 minute or 1 hour), -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Firebolt: Unchanged</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Flaming Barrier: 12 or 14 MP: 6 MP elemental object area, 2 MP range, 1 MP creation elemental damage, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Friendship: 7 or 9 MP: 3 MP charmed condition (severe), 1 mp range, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Greasepatch: 8 MP: 2 MP slick, 2 MP range, 1 MP area, 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Healing Burst: 4 MP: 1 MP healing, 3 MP area</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Healing Dose: 1 MP: 1 MP healing</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hey, Look! We're Cats: 10 or 12 MP: 3 MP average visual, 3 MP average audio, -1 MP bundled senses, 2 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Icewall: 9 or 11 MP: 4 MP creation, 2 MP range, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Inevitability: 10 MP: 10 MP aging, -3 MP duration spread (maybe?), 3 MP duration (Duration spread logic is sort of busted with the new duration table)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Infantry's Boon: 7 MP: 2 MP soak, 2 MP area, 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Invisibility: 8 MP: 5 MP complex visual illusion, 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Invisibility, Inscrutable: 12 MP: 5 MP complex visual illusion, 5 MP complex audio illusion, -1 bundled senses, 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lesser Gaze of the Gorgon: 18 MP (or 12 against a willing target): 8 MP De-animate, 6 MP unwilling target, 1 MP range, 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lightning Trap: 8 MP: 4 MP elemental damage, 4 MP duration with contingency</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lupus Ally: 10-13 MP: 4 MP summoning, 4 MP compulsion (severe), 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour), -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mage Armor: 7 or 9 MP: 4 MP soak (half effect), 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mage Plate: 11 or 13 MP: 8 MP soak (half effect), 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mage's Thrust: Unchanged</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Maleficent Misfortune: 9 MP: 4 MP curse, 2 MP range, 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mantle of Antimagic: 9 or 11 MP: 5 MP antimagic, 1 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mask of Nothingness: 24 or 26 MP: 5 MP complex visual, 5 MP complex audio, 8 MP complex tactile, 6 MP complex olfactory, -3 MP bundled senses, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mend Gear: 1 MP: 1 MP healing</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mind Blast: The Dazed condition is no longer possible from enchantment, maybe use Confused instead? Its cost would be 12 MP: 4 MP area, 1 MP discerning, 4 MP charm (severe Confused condition), 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mind Wipe: 15 MP: 6 MP mindwipe, 3 MP subtle compulsion, 7 MP duration, -1 MP casting time (1 minute, required by mindwipe addon) (not sure why this used to have a range cost)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Murder of Crows: 11 or 13 MP: 2 MP transform creature, 6 MP splitting, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Nightmare Beast: 17 MP: 5 MP complex visual, 1 MP simple audio, 4 MP reactive, 2 MP range, 2 MP area, 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Nightmare Incarnate: 22 MP: 5 MP complex visual, 1 MP simple audio, 4 MP reactive, 2 MP range, 4 MP area, 3 MP duration, 4 MP charm (severe frightened)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Pocket Armory: 9 or 11 MP: 4 MP create object (1200 gc, though creation spell costs really should be explained better, do the MP spent on the area and maybe the duration count here?), 2 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Prince into Toad: 12 or 13: 2 MP transform, 6 MP unwilling target, 7 MP duration, -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Protection from Evil: 4 MP: 1 MP hedging, 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rain Dance: I have no idea how the cost is arrived at for this spell. It currently lists 2 MP as the creation cost, but there maybe should only be 1 (elemental damage) or none? The air damage section says the duration needs to be at least 10 minutes, but that's not a valid duration any more. It's also not really clear what happens with a 10 minute duration for a storm that takes 10 minutes to develop. It's a mess!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Remedy: Not exactly sure what the "remove all conditions" effect means (maybe just 10 levels of conditions?). Something similar might be: 19 MP: 10 MP remove up to 5 severe conditions, 5 MP negate poison, 3 MP duration (though the duration might be too expensive for an extra side effect)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rescue Featherfall: 5 MP: 1 MP featherfall, 4 MP duration with contingency</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Reshaping: This one benefits from the new bulk transformation effect! 6 MP: 3 MP bulk transformation (one 5' square), 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Roaming Eye: 9 or 11 MP: 5 MP clairvoyance, 1 MP telekinesis, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scintillating Evening Wear: I still don't really understand creation spell costs (do you pay for an area, and then pay for the area again for the creation effect?). This one might be 8 MP: 2 MP elemental object, 1 MP area, 5 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Searing Fireball: 9 MP: 4 MP fire damage, 3 MP range, 2 MP area</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shield of Glory: 9 or 11 MP: 6 MP shielding, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Shrieking Wall: 8 MP: 1 MP damage, 2 MP range, 2 MP area (line), 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sic 'Em: 10 MP: 4 MP charm (severe Angry), 1 MP targeted enchantment, 2 MP range, 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spellguard: 8 or 10 MP: 6 MP dispel magic, 2 or 4 MP duration with contingency (1 minute or 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spookiness: 9 MP: 1 MP simple audio, 1 MP simple tactile, 2 MP area, 5 MP duration with contingency</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stormbolt: 9 MP: 4 MP lightning damage, 2 MP range, 2 MP area, 1 MP discerning</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Soulswitch: 12 MP: 5 MP possession, 7 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Telepresence: All the non-divination effects should be riders on the scrying, so double cost. My best guess is 20 or 21 MP: 5 MP clairvoyance, 2 MP clairaudience, 4 MP create sound rider (not really sure about this cost, are we paying for an area?), 2 MP complex sound rider, 6 MP average visual illusion rider, 2 MP duration, -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Thermonuclear Detonation: This spell is impossibly expensive now. 41 MP: 40 MP time hop (10 rounds), 1 MP duration (1 round to activate)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Titanic Might: Unchanged, but the itemized cost has a typo (10 MP should be 20, the top-line number is right)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Toast to Unconsciousness: Unchanged</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Troll's Tenacity: 18 MP: 18 MP healing (10d6), -3 MP duration spread (not sure this makes sense any more), 3 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Turncoat: 11 MP: 4 MP compulsion (severe), 1 MP telepathic command, 4 MP range, 2 MP duration</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Turn Undead: 8 MP: 4 MP charm (severe Afraid), 2 MP area, 2 MP duration (no idea why this used to be discerning)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vine Chains: 14 MP: 5 MP immobilize, 3 MP range, 3 MP area, 3 MP duration (note a 1 MP cheaper version could be made with Create instead of Transform, no idea what the differences would be)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wallbuilder's Blessing: Unchanged</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Watery Grave: This probably needs to use the new bulk transformation effect, and thus becomes impossibly expensive (a 50' diameter area is more than seventy-five 5' squares, so MP cost will be >200)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Winter's Embrace: 16-19 6 MP withstanding, 4 MP vulnerability, 2 MP discerning (1 MP twice), 2 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour), -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Word of Sleep: 7 MP: 2 MP charm (normal Sleeping condition), 2 MP range, 3 MP duration</li> </ul><p>I'm rounding up contingency costs now (and edited the post above to do the same).</p><p></p><p>One spell (Reshaping) became cheaper using the new bulk transformation effect, if I applied it correctly (in place of an object size). Another one (Watery Grave) would become impossibly expensive because of it (using it instead of an area of effect cost).</p><p></p><p>As you might notice in a number of my comments along with the spells, I'm not sure I understand the costing of creation spells (I've written about this in a few previous threads). It's never clear if you need to pay for the area or gold cost as part of the create object or elemental object effect, or if you just pay for the area normally and get the creation for free (or both?). Existing spells in the list do it several different ways, so I'm no wiser after having read them all carefully. I mostly left the creation costs unchanged in the existing spells, but I have no confidence that they're correct. The Transform effects that involve sizes and costs are much more clear.</p><p></p><p>A few other things that came up while reviewing the spells:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spread durations don't make much sense any more. You can cast an instantaneous spell for the same cost as one spread over a 1 minute duration (if I did the math right), so I have no idea why you'd spread it out at all.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I'm also not clear on what the difference is between a Restraining creation effect and an Immobilizing transformation effect. The latter is 1 MP more expensive for no obvious reason.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A ton of the low-end spells got a lot more expensive, as the cost of a 1 minute duration went from 0 to 3 MP. Similar issues appear with the lack of a 2-round casting time (which used to give a 2 MP discount for a low burden), now you either do without a discount, or take a full minute to cast.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I suspect many of the spells that used to be 4-5 MP and are now close to double that at 7-10 MP should be replaced in the example spell list, as they no longer serve their previous purpose (of being readily usable by novice mages).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Some mid-high level spells (especially illusions) that used to be listed as 15-ish MP are now 20+ MP and are probably out of reach for even many experienced casters. Maybe they should be replaced too.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">On the other hand, evocation and healing magic got cheaper, especially at the low end (the first two damage or healing dice are half cost). So maybe replace some of the spells that took huge MP cost hits with new evocations?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Or just generally add new instantaneous spells.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BlckKnght, post: 7827515, member: 6958254"] All right, here's the rest of the spells: [LIST] [*]Field of Weakness: 9-12 MP: 4 MP drain attribute, 3 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration with contingency (1 minute or 1 hour), -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute) [*]Firebolt: Unchanged [*]Flaming Barrier: 12 or 14 MP: 6 MP elemental object area, 2 MP range, 1 MP creation elemental damage, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Friendship: 7 or 9 MP: 3 MP charmed condition (severe), 1 mp range, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Greasepatch: 8 MP: 2 MP slick, 2 MP range, 1 MP area, 3 MP duration [*]Healing Burst: 4 MP: 1 MP healing, 3 MP area [*]Healing Dose: 1 MP: 1 MP healing [*]Hey, Look! We're Cats: 10 or 12 MP: 3 MP average visual, 3 MP average audio, -1 MP bundled senses, 2 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Icewall: 9 or 11 MP: 4 MP creation, 2 MP range, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Inevitability: 10 MP: 10 MP aging, -3 MP duration spread (maybe?), 3 MP duration (Duration spread logic is sort of busted with the new duration table) [*]Infantry's Boon: 7 MP: 2 MP soak, 2 MP area, 3 MP duration [*]Invisibility: 8 MP: 5 MP complex visual illusion, 3 MP duration [*]Invisibility, Inscrutable: 12 MP: 5 MP complex visual illusion, 5 MP complex audio illusion, -1 bundled senses, 3 MP duration [*]Lesser Gaze of the Gorgon: 18 MP (or 12 against a willing target): 8 MP De-animate, 6 MP unwilling target, 1 MP range, 3 MP duration [*]Lightning Trap: 8 MP: 4 MP elemental damage, 4 MP duration with contingency [*]Lupus Ally: 10-13 MP: 4 MP summoning, 4 MP compulsion (severe), 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour), -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute) [*]Mage Armor: 7 or 9 MP: 4 MP soak (half effect), 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Mage Plate: 11 or 13 MP: 8 MP soak (half effect), 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Mage's Thrust: Unchanged [*]Maleficent Misfortune: 9 MP: 4 MP curse, 2 MP range, 3 MP duration [*]Mantle of Antimagic: 9 or 11 MP: 5 MP antimagic, 1 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Mask of Nothingness: 24 or 26 MP: 5 MP complex visual, 5 MP complex audio, 8 MP complex tactile, 6 MP complex olfactory, -3 MP bundled senses, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Mend Gear: 1 MP: 1 MP healing [*]Mind Blast: The Dazed condition is no longer possible from enchantment, maybe use Confused instead? Its cost would be 12 MP: 4 MP area, 1 MP discerning, 4 MP charm (severe Confused condition), 3 MP duration [*]Mind Wipe: 15 MP: 6 MP mindwipe, 3 MP subtle compulsion, 7 MP duration, -1 MP casting time (1 minute, required by mindwipe addon) (not sure why this used to have a range cost) [*]Murder of Crows: 11 or 13 MP: 2 MP transform creature, 6 MP splitting, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Nightmare Beast: 17 MP: 5 MP complex visual, 1 MP simple audio, 4 MP reactive, 2 MP range, 2 MP area, 3 MP duration [*]Nightmare Incarnate: 22 MP: 5 MP complex visual, 1 MP simple audio, 4 MP reactive, 2 MP range, 4 MP area, 3 MP duration, 4 MP charm (severe frightened) [*]Pocket Armory: 9 or 11 MP: 4 MP create object (1200 gc, though creation spell costs really should be explained better, do the MP spent on the area and maybe the duration count here?), 2 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Prince into Toad: 12 or 13: 2 MP transform, 6 MP unwilling target, 7 MP duration, -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute) [*]Protection from Evil: 4 MP: 1 MP hedging, 3 MP duration [*]Rain Dance: I have no idea how the cost is arrived at for this spell. It currently lists 2 MP as the creation cost, but there maybe should only be 1 (elemental damage) or none? The air damage section says the duration needs to be at least 10 minutes, but that's not a valid duration any more. It's also not really clear what happens with a 10 minute duration for a storm that takes 10 minutes to develop. It's a mess! [*]Remedy: Not exactly sure what the "remove all conditions" effect means (maybe just 10 levels of conditions?). Something similar might be: 19 MP: 10 MP remove up to 5 severe conditions, 5 MP negate poison, 3 MP duration (though the duration might be too expensive for an extra side effect) [*]Rescue Featherfall: 5 MP: 1 MP featherfall, 4 MP duration with contingency [*]Reshaping: This one benefits from the new bulk transformation effect! 6 MP: 3 MP bulk transformation (one 5' square), 3 MP duration [*]Roaming Eye: 9 or 11 MP: 5 MP clairvoyance, 1 MP telekinesis, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Scintillating Evening Wear: I still don't really understand creation spell costs (do you pay for an area, and then pay for the area again for the creation effect?). This one might be 8 MP: 2 MP elemental object, 1 MP area, 5 MP duration [*]Searing Fireball: 9 MP: 4 MP fire damage, 3 MP range, 2 MP area [*]Shield of Glory: 9 or 11 MP: 6 MP shielding, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Shrieking Wall: 8 MP: 1 MP damage, 2 MP range, 2 MP area (line), 3 MP duration [*]Sic 'Em: 10 MP: 4 MP charm (severe Angry), 1 MP targeted enchantment, 2 MP range, 3 MP duration [*]Spellguard: 8 or 10 MP: 6 MP dispel magic, 2 or 4 MP duration with contingency (1 minute or 1 hour) [*]Spookiness: 9 MP: 1 MP simple audio, 1 MP simple tactile, 2 MP area, 5 MP duration with contingency [*]Stormbolt: 9 MP: 4 MP lightning damage, 2 MP range, 2 MP area, 1 MP discerning [*]Soulswitch: 12 MP: 5 MP possession, 7 MP duration [*]Telepresence: All the non-divination effects should be riders on the scrying, so double cost. My best guess is 20 or 21 MP: 5 MP clairvoyance, 2 MP clairaudience, 4 MP create sound rider (not really sure about this cost, are we paying for an area?), 2 MP complex sound rider, 6 MP average visual illusion rider, 2 MP duration, -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute) [*]Thermonuclear Detonation: This spell is impossibly expensive now. 41 MP: 40 MP time hop (10 rounds), 1 MP duration (1 round to activate) [*]Titanic Might: Unchanged, but the itemized cost has a typo (10 MP should be 20, the top-line number is right) [*]Toast to Unconsciousness: Unchanged [*]Troll's Tenacity: 18 MP: 18 MP healing (10d6), -3 MP duration spread (not sure this makes sense any more), 3 MP duration [*]Turncoat: 11 MP: 4 MP compulsion (severe), 1 MP telepathic command, 4 MP range, 2 MP duration [*]Turn Undead: 8 MP: 4 MP charm (severe Afraid), 2 MP area, 2 MP duration (no idea why this used to be discerning) [*]Vine Chains: 14 MP: 5 MP immobilize, 3 MP range, 3 MP area, 3 MP duration (note a 1 MP cheaper version could be made with Create instead of Transform, no idea what the differences would be) [*]Wallbuilder's Blessing: Unchanged [*]Watery Grave: This probably needs to use the new bulk transformation effect, and thus becomes impossibly expensive (a 50' diameter area is more than seventy-five 5' squares, so MP cost will be >200) [*]Winter's Embrace: 16-19 6 MP withstanding, 4 MP vulnerability, 2 MP discerning (1 MP twice), 2 MP area, 3 or 5 MP duration (1 minute or 1 hour), -0 or -1 casting time (one action or one minute) [*]Word of Sleep: 7 MP: 2 MP charm (normal Sleeping condition), 2 MP range, 3 MP duration [/LIST] I'm rounding up contingency costs now (and edited the post above to do the same). One spell (Reshaping) became cheaper using the new bulk transformation effect, if I applied it correctly (in place of an object size). Another one (Watery Grave) would become impossibly expensive because of it (using it instead of an area of effect cost). As you might notice in a number of my comments along with the spells, I'm not sure I understand the costing of creation spells (I've written about this in a few previous threads). It's never clear if you need to pay for the area or gold cost as part of the create object or elemental object effect, or if you just pay for the area normally and get the creation for free (or both?). Existing spells in the list do it several different ways, so I'm no wiser after having read them all carefully. I mostly left the creation costs unchanged in the existing spells, but I have no confidence that they're correct. The Transform effects that involve sizes and costs are much more clear. A few other things that came up while reviewing the spells: [LIST] [*]Spread durations don't make much sense any more. You can cast an instantaneous spell for the same cost as one spread over a 1 minute duration (if I did the math right), so I have no idea why you'd spread it out at all. [*]I'm also not clear on what the difference is between a Restraining creation effect and an Immobilizing transformation effect. The latter is 1 MP more expensive for no obvious reason. [*]A ton of the low-end spells got a lot more expensive, as the cost of a 1 minute duration went from 0 to 3 MP. Similar issues appear with the lack of a 2-round casting time (which used to give a 2 MP discount for a low burden), now you either do without a discount, or take a full minute to cast. [*]I suspect many of the spells that used to be 4-5 MP and are now close to double that at 7-10 MP should be replaced in the example spell list, as they no longer serve their previous purpose (of being readily usable by novice mages). [*]Some mid-high level spells (especially illusions) that used to be listed as 15-ish MP are now 20+ MP and are probably out of reach for even many experienced casters. Maybe they should be replaced too. [*]On the other hand, evocation and healing magic got cheaper, especially at the low end (the first two damage or healing dice are half cost). So maybe replace some of the spells that took huge MP cost hits with new evocations? [*]Or just generally add new instantaneous spells. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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Need help - re-costing OLD spells
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