Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Negociating with a villain
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6495089" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Thieves are used to working with thieves. That's not really the problem. The problem is that setting up this situation where negotiation is favorable to both parties when both parties are basically ruthless is difficult. And looking at it another way:</p><p></p><p>step 1: The villain isn't disgustingly evil. </p><p>step 2: The villain isn't looking to double cross the PC's.</p><p>step 3: The villain has an honorable reputation.</p><p>step 4: The villain opens up peaceful relations with the PC's.</p><p>step 5: The villain is clearly powerful and capable and not a push over.</p><p></p><p>The problem in this scenario is the players tend to make the determination: "This guy isn't a villain. This guy is an ally! And this guy is great! We can totally trust this guy! He's so cool. He's got poison. He's not afraid to torture people for information. He employs assassins. There is totally nothing that can go wrong here."</p><p></p><p>This leaves me as a DM in another bind. First, if the PC's later discover, "Wait, Master Blackguard knows so much about the villain because Master Blackguard is a slaver that steals children and supplies them to the very demonic cult we've been fighting! I never saw that coming! He was so Sauvé! He had panache! He offered us loot!", there is a tendency to treat this as betrayal on the NPC's part: "We've totally been had. I thought this was the cool sort of evil person, but really he's loathsome greedy man that would sale his own grandmother if the price was right! He's totally been working with the bad guys all along! We're totally going to ambush and kill him!" It rarely occurs to them that Master Blackgaurd, despite his comparative lack of morals, is negotiating in part because his own dealings are starting to sicken him and he thinks maybe the other villain is really beyond the pale, and after discovering he's really 'guilty' there tends to be a tendency for the PC's to cease to negotiate in good faith much less adopt some really advanced technique like trying to needle the villain's own atrophied conscious further. </p><p></p><p>But if on the other hand the character is all the above and really has no foibles worse than the fact he's cheating the imperial tax collectors regarding the pistachio tariff, there is a tendency for the 'villain' here to probably be more sparkling clean and decent than the PC's tend to be with the ultimate result that I'm not really convinced that if this really is a villain negotiation, it certainly won't be the player's that see it that way.</p><p></p><p>Fundamentally the problem tends to be that most players find anti-heroes and anti-villains more glamorous than heroes, and that comes out both in how most players play their PC's, and what NPC's most players will admire and desire to associate with.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6495089, member: 4937"] Thieves are used to working with thieves. That's not really the problem. The problem is that setting up this situation where negotiation is favorable to both parties when both parties are basically ruthless is difficult. And looking at it another way: step 1: The villain isn't disgustingly evil. step 2: The villain isn't looking to double cross the PC's. step 3: The villain has an honorable reputation. step 4: The villain opens up peaceful relations with the PC's. step 5: The villain is clearly powerful and capable and not a push over. The problem in this scenario is the players tend to make the determination: "This guy isn't a villain. This guy is an ally! And this guy is great! We can totally trust this guy! He's so cool. He's got poison. He's not afraid to torture people for information. He employs assassins. There is totally nothing that can go wrong here." This leaves me as a DM in another bind. First, if the PC's later discover, "Wait, Master Blackguard knows so much about the villain because Master Blackguard is a slaver that steals children and supplies them to the very demonic cult we've been fighting! I never saw that coming! He was so Sauvé! He had panache! He offered us loot!", there is a tendency to treat this as betrayal on the NPC's part: "We've totally been had. I thought this was the cool sort of evil person, but really he's loathsome greedy man that would sale his own grandmother if the price was right! He's totally been working with the bad guys all along! We're totally going to ambush and kill him!" It rarely occurs to them that Master Blackgaurd, despite his comparative lack of morals, is negotiating in part because his own dealings are starting to sicken him and he thinks maybe the other villain is really beyond the pale, and after discovering he's really 'guilty' there tends to be a tendency for the PC's to cease to negotiate in good faith much less adopt some really advanced technique like trying to needle the villain's own atrophied conscious further. But if on the other hand the character is all the above and really has no foibles worse than the fact he's cheating the imperial tax collectors regarding the pistachio tariff, there is a tendency for the 'villain' here to probably be more sparkling clean and decent than the PC's tend to be with the ultimate result that I'm not really convinced that if this really is a villain negotiation, it certainly won't be the player's that see it that way. Fundamentally the problem tends to be that most players find anti-heroes and anti-villains more glamorous than heroes, and that comes out both in how most players play their PC's, and what NPC's most players will admire and desire to associate with. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Negociating with a villain
Top