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D&D Older Editions
New 4E: Divorcing Class and Role (and what is a controller?)
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<blockquote data-quote="Xeviat" data-source="post: 7023751" data-attributes="member: 57494"><p>Hi everyone,</p><p></p><p>As I play 5th Edition D&D more, I find myself wanting to fuss with things. I took some time to think on it and it seems that it would be less work for me to tweak 4E to be the game I want to run instead of changing more things about 5E. I like the level by level approach to 5E multiclassing, and I like how the classes read, but I like the balance of 4E and the rhythm of the gameplay and the more tactical combats. I don't like players getting 1 shot at level 1, I don't like boring bag of HP monsters ... so I think I'm going to go back to 4E.</p><p></p><p>But, I really want to play around with how it is presented so I can reintroduce some of my players to 4E. A big chunk of them claim to hate 4E, even though some of them never really played it. Since I can't really sell 4E stuff anymore, I'm going to be publicly working on this project. Hopefully it's interesting to other people. So, here's some of my ideas:</p><p></p><p>1) I want to divorce class from role. Class determines the character's place in the world and how they overcome their challenges. Each class will have abilities that cater to a playstyle, but their role will be determined by a choice. The broader, more classic classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) will be able to be every role, while the more specialized classes will be focused a bit more. Many of the 4E classes will be combined: An Invoker is a Controller Cleric, and an Avenger is a Striker Paladin, for instance.</p><p>2) I'd like to adjust the class structure to allow for 3E/5E style multiclassing, but if this isn't possible then I'll just adjust the way feat-multiclassing worked.</p><p>3) I'm going to start with a 1-20 class structure.</p><p>4) Spells and Exploits will be largely removed from the classes and instead simply be spell/exploit lists in their own section of the "book". Rather than having a dozen level 1 encounter powers that deal 1[W]+Abil damage and cause slow till end of turn, it will be 1 exploit that a number of classes will have access to.</p><p>5) On Encounters/Dailies: This is one of the larger changes I'm looking at. A level 20 character in 4E has 4 encounters and 4 dailies. I'm looking at having spells return to their classic levels and have them largely start off as dailies and then become encounters as you go up. Utility spells will likely have to remain, especially as some aren't designed to be spammed (the cure wounds chain would be very bad if it could be used every encounter).</p><p></p><p>Here's a really quick example of what the 5E Wizard would look like if converted to a more 4E class approach:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td> Level</td><td> Features</td><td> Cantrips</td><td> 1[SUP]st[/SUP]</td><td> 2[SUP]nd[/SUP]</td><td> 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]</td><td> 4[SUP]th[/SUP]</td><td> 5[SUP]th[/SUP]</td><td> 6[SUP]th[/SUP]</td><td> 7[SUP]th[/SUP]</td><td> 8[SUP]th[/SUP]</td><td> 9[SUP]th[/SUP]</td></tr><tr><td> 1</td><td> Spellbook, Arcane Recovery</td><td> 3</td><td> E</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 2</td><td> Arcane Tradition</td><td> 3</td><td> E</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 3</td><td> </td><td> 3</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 4</td><td> ASI</td><td> 4</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 5</td><td> </td><td> 4</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 6</td><td> Tradition Feature</td><td> 4</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 7</td><td> </td><td> 4</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 8</td><td> ASI</td><td> 4</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 9</td><td> </td><td> 4</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 10</td><td> Tradition Feature</td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 11</td><td> </td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 12</td><td> ASI</td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 13</td><td> </td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 14</td><td> Tradition Feature</td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 15</td><td> </td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 16</td><td> ASI</td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> </td></tr><tr><td> 17</td><td> </td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td></tr><tr><td> 18</td><td> Spell Mastery</td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td></tr><tr><td> 19</td><td> ASI</td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td></tr><tr><td> 20</td><td> Signature Spell</td><td> 5</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> E</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td><td> D</td></tr></table><p></p><p>I might not go with the exact structure, but I'm thinking a flow like this could work out.</p><p></p><p>What are your thoughts?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Xeviat, post: 7023751, member: 57494"] Hi everyone, As I play 5th Edition D&D more, I find myself wanting to fuss with things. I took some time to think on it and it seems that it would be less work for me to tweak 4E to be the game I want to run instead of changing more things about 5E. I like the level by level approach to 5E multiclassing, and I like how the classes read, but I like the balance of 4E and the rhythm of the gameplay and the more tactical combats. I don't like players getting 1 shot at level 1, I don't like boring bag of HP monsters ... so I think I'm going to go back to 4E. But, I really want to play around with how it is presented so I can reintroduce some of my players to 4E. A big chunk of them claim to hate 4E, even though some of them never really played it. Since I can't really sell 4E stuff anymore, I'm going to be publicly working on this project. Hopefully it's interesting to other people. So, here's some of my ideas: 1) I want to divorce class from role. Class determines the character's place in the world and how they overcome their challenges. Each class will have abilities that cater to a playstyle, but their role will be determined by a choice. The broader, more classic classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) will be able to be every role, while the more specialized classes will be focused a bit more. Many of the 4E classes will be combined: An Invoker is a Controller Cleric, and an Avenger is a Striker Paladin, for instance. 2) I'd like to adjust the class structure to allow for 3E/5E style multiclassing, but if this isn't possible then I'll just adjust the way feat-multiclassing worked. 3) I'm going to start with a 1-20 class structure. 4) Spells and Exploits will be largely removed from the classes and instead simply be spell/exploit lists in their own section of the "book". Rather than having a dozen level 1 encounter powers that deal 1[W]+Abil damage and cause slow till end of turn, it will be 1 exploit that a number of classes will have access to. 5) On Encounters/Dailies: This is one of the larger changes I'm looking at. A level 20 character in 4E has 4 encounters and 4 dailies. I'm looking at having spells return to their classic levels and have them largely start off as dailies and then become encounters as you go up. Utility spells will likely have to remain, especially as some aren't designed to be spammed (the cure wounds chain would be very bad if it could be used every encounter). Here's a really quick example of what the 5E Wizard would look like if converted to a more 4E class approach: [TABLE="width: 665"] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] Level[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] Features[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] Cantrips[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] 1[SUP]st[/SUP][/TD] [TD="width: 28"] 2[SUP]nd[/SUP][/TD] [TD="width: 28"] 3[SUP]rd[/SUP][/TD] [TD="width: 28"] 4[SUP]th[/SUP][/TD] [TD="width: 28"] 5[SUP]th[/SUP][/TD] [TD="width: 28"] 6[SUP]th[/SUP][/TD] [TD="width: 28"] 7[SUP]th[/SUP][/TD] [TD="width: 28"] 8[SUP]th[/SUP][/TD] [TD="width: 26"] 9[SUP]th[/SUP][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 1[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] Spellbook, Arcane Recovery[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 3[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 2[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] Arcane Tradition[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 3[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 3[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] [/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 3[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 4[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] ASI[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 4[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] [/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 4[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 6[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] Tradition Feature[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 4[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 7[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] [/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 4[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 8[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] ASI[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 4[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 9[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] [/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 4[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 10[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] Tradition Feature[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 11[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] [/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 12[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] ASI[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 13[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] [/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 14[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] Tradition Feature[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] [/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 15[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] [/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 16[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] ASI[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 26"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 17[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] [/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 26"] D[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 18[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] Spell Mastery[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 26"] D[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 19[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] ASI[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 26"] D[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 33"] 20[/TD] [TD="width: 238"] Signature Spell[/TD] [TD="width: 46"] 5[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] E[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 28"] D[/TD] [TD="width: 26"] D[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] I might not go with the exact structure, but I'm thinking a flow like this could work out. What are your thoughts? [/QUOTE]
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