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New 4E: Divorcing Class and Role (and what is a controller?)
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7024335" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>At that point Class /almost/ maps to Source. There's little point to a Paladin, for instance, just have the Cleric covering the whole Divine Source - if you want a Paladin, you play a Defender Cleric perhaps MC'd with Fighter (Defender or Striker role). Similarly, Wizard (Role) would pretty logically fill in for all the Arcane classes, with the possible exception of Warlock, which might, instead, be a MC-only variation on the Wizard (you get arcane power instantly, from your Pact, convenient for MCing, no?).</p><p></p><p>The one exception /might/ be Fighter & Rogue, but even then, the line between the two owes more to tradition than logic. Ranger certainly has no business existing in a game where a Fighter can just up and be a striker, melee or ranged. Ranger & Rogue might work better as Themes that give different non-combat areas of focus.</p><p></p><p> Generic (IMHO, that'd be taking it too far), or by Source?</p><p></p><p>Terrible idea, honestly. If you're going to go there, mod 5e, don't try to rebuild 4e around that legacy.</p><p></p><p>Indeed. The Controller is the proud nail of 4e. It messes with an otherwise pretty neat system. There are two major problems with it, and they're closely related:</p><p></p><p>1) it exists solely to grandfather in the wizard and keep it just a little overpowered</p><p>2) support for the role is built into class powers instead of features</p><p></p><p>OK, there's a third issue I have with it, 3) it prevents many fairly obvious Fighter & Warlord exploits from being implemented, because they'd step on the controller's toes. Threatening Reach in the hands of the former, for instance, and manipulating enemies with tactics & maneuvers in the case of the latter.</p><p></p><p>Strictly superior powers. Controller powers are just plain better, they have bigger areas, they have harsher riders, stronger miss lines, they attack any defense, even every defense, even auto-'hit' having nothing but an effect line. They have greater versatility, overall. </p><p></p><p> There are several, as befits a role meant to overpower it's premier representative. Controller functions include:</p><p></p><p>Minion Sweeping, Swarm extermination, recon-by-fireball, single-target lockdown, de-buffing, and battlefield modification (implied interdiction by the mere threat of AEs, ongoing zones, walls, summons/conjurations, etc). Another interesting aspect is that controller powers can often keep the enemy at bay or punish it for approaching the controller, while, in contrast defenders attract enemies, leaders de-buff them for the whole party, and strikers tend to run away from them. Ironically, the controller is none-the-less the most dispensable role (because the other three really do cover all the basics), but also the one best-suited to solo adventuring. </p><p></p><p>IMHO, the first step to fixing up the controller would be to split it into two roles, the Blaster and the Controller.</p><p></p><p>The Blaster would specialize in AEs, damaging persistent zones, sustainable attacks, and multi-attacking with limited ability to focus those attacks on one target ('secondary striker'). That could include summons that fight and damaging conjurations.</p><p></p><p>The Controller would specialize in imposing conditions, primarily single-target, or as consequences to interacting with a zone or conjuration or the like that changes the environment (that'd include Illusions, for instance). </p><p>I'd also picture them having more and more varied/situational options than other roles, but that may also be a case of grandfathering in the wizard. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>FREX: If the Blaster-Wizard cast Ice Storm, he'd always get the fist-sized-Hail version and do bludgeoning & cold damage to everything in the area. If the Controller-Wizard cast the same spell, he'd get the Sleet Storm version, creating a icy/slippery zone. (Yeah, now double that to cover all four roles, then multiply it by ~3k powers.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7024335, member: 996"] At that point Class /almost/ maps to Source. There's little point to a Paladin, for instance, just have the Cleric covering the whole Divine Source - if you want a Paladin, you play a Defender Cleric perhaps MC'd with Fighter (Defender or Striker role). Similarly, Wizard (Role) would pretty logically fill in for all the Arcane classes, with the possible exception of Warlock, which might, instead, be a MC-only variation on the Wizard (you get arcane power instantly, from your Pact, convenient for MCing, no?). The one exception /might/ be Fighter & Rogue, but even then, the line between the two owes more to tradition than logic. Ranger certainly has no business existing in a game where a Fighter can just up and be a striker, melee or ranged. Ranger & Rogue might work better as Themes that give different non-combat areas of focus. Generic (IMHO, that'd be taking it too far), or by Source? Terrible idea, honestly. If you're going to go there, mod 5e, don't try to rebuild 4e around that legacy. Indeed. The Controller is the proud nail of 4e. It messes with an otherwise pretty neat system. There are two major problems with it, and they're closely related: 1) it exists solely to grandfather in the wizard and keep it just a little overpowered 2) support for the role is built into class powers instead of features OK, there's a third issue I have with it, 3) it prevents many fairly obvious Fighter & Warlord exploits from being implemented, because they'd step on the controller's toes. Threatening Reach in the hands of the former, for instance, and manipulating enemies with tactics & maneuvers in the case of the latter. Strictly superior powers. Controller powers are just plain better, they have bigger areas, they have harsher riders, stronger miss lines, they attack any defense, even every defense, even auto-'hit' having nothing but an effect line. They have greater versatility, overall. There are several, as befits a role meant to overpower it's premier representative. Controller functions include: Minion Sweeping, Swarm extermination, recon-by-fireball, single-target lockdown, de-buffing, and battlefield modification (implied interdiction by the mere threat of AEs, ongoing zones, walls, summons/conjurations, etc). Another interesting aspect is that controller powers can often keep the enemy at bay or punish it for approaching the controller, while, in contrast defenders attract enemies, leaders de-buff them for the whole party, and strikers tend to run away from them. Ironically, the controller is none-the-less the most dispensable role (because the other three really do cover all the basics), but also the one best-suited to solo adventuring. IMHO, the first step to fixing up the controller would be to split it into two roles, the Blaster and the Controller. The Blaster would specialize in AEs, damaging persistent zones, sustainable attacks, and multi-attacking with limited ability to focus those attacks on one target ('secondary striker'). That could include summons that fight and damaging conjurations. The Controller would specialize in imposing conditions, primarily single-target, or as consequences to interacting with a zone or conjuration or the like that changes the environment (that'd include Illusions, for instance). I'd also picture them having more and more varied/situational options than other roles, but that may also be a case of grandfathering in the wizard. ;) FREX: If the Blaster-Wizard cast Ice Storm, he'd always get the fist-sized-Hail version and do bludgeoning & cold damage to everything in the area. If the Controller-Wizard cast the same spell, he'd get the Sleet Storm version, creating a icy/slippery zone. (Yeah, now double that to cover all four roles, then multiply it by ~3k powers.) [/QUOTE]
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