New Cosmonomicon Overview

[BlackJaw]

This project is designed to provide an OGC or at least D20 (which legal mumbo jumbo to be used is not yet decided) rule set for fantasy flight rules. This project is not designed to generate a campaign world, or setting. It is designed to work specifically with Dungeons and Dragons core rules, although it should be possible to use these rules with D20 Modern or any other setting or game with only a little work.

There will be 3 sets of rules for this project:
Standard flight rules: This document will provide rules for normal flight in D&D, such as the flight of magic carpets, dragons, and running “3d” combat on weightless planes/places. It will include a few new skills and some new feats. It will not include the new Core Class, or references to special vehicle rules. This document is intended for use in games for DMs and players that would like a smoother set of flight rules for dealing with winged monsters and flying PCs.

Player Vehicle Rules: This document will provide basic flight and vehicle rules for use by players. It will include standard flight rules and the information on the use of vehicles, including the vehicle scale rules, and a new Core class. It does not include any information on special mediums, or vehicle creation rules. It is intended for use by players in a setting with flying vehicles.

Full Vehicle Rules: This document will provide everything available, including standard flight, vehicle flight, the new core class and related skills and feats, rules for special mediums, and the rules for making vehicles. It is intended for DMs who will be making their settings involve flight crafts, and can also be used by Players interested in building or customizing their flying crafts.

The subsections of the Cosmonomicon:

Introduction:
To explain the Cosmonomicon, and the new terms used in it.

Flight rules:
Rules for standard flight, like dragons and wizards with the fly spell, etc.

Vehicle rules:
Rules for piloting vehicles, how vehicles work, the vehicle scale system, and some special flight rules that only apply to vehicles.

Character rules:
The new skills, the new feats, the new core class, and any new spells that are directly linked to flight.

Environment Rules:
Rules for dealing with different flight environments; like atmosphere, fluid, and vacuum.

Vehicle Creation rules:
The ever difficult set of rules for a hopefully balanced vehicle creation, including the [object] and [vehicle] monster sub-types, the various generic vehicle parts, and maybe an example or two of vehicle creation.

 

[BlackJaw]

Well as I've been working on it, I've noticed my orignal layout isn't dead on. What I'm working with now is:
Introduction (what is this, what do you need, a few new terms)
Chapter 1: basics (facing, turning, manuvering rattings, turns, & slides: just enough to run simple flight)
Chapter 2: Advanced Manuvering (vehicle vs creature, stunts, altitude, collisions, conditions, etc)
Chapter 3: Combat (working on it now)
Chatper 4: Characters (new skills, the two piloting skill systems, feats, the core classes and the Pilot Core class, advice on NPC pilots )
Chapter 5: Enviroments (atmosphere/liquid/vacuum & gravity)
Chapter 6: Vehicles & Monsters (Vehicle creation rules with 1 example, converting monsters to the new rules with dragon example)

You will note I don't plan to include anyting on magic/tech/psionic levels for various cosmos. While I very much like that concept (that you can explore space and find other worlds with diffrent races, tech, magic, etc) it is really starting to become more of a setting or setting option, and that makes it more complicated then the orginal plan for the project: flight rules with vehicles. In fact I took a lot of cool stuff out (stuff I once proposed or still think would be cool to make) and figure they should be put into add-ons etc.

Stuff to make for latter add-ons (IE stuff stripped from the plan to make it easier on all of us):
a few sample vehicles along a theme (I need them for my home game anyway. goblin airships mostly.)
some monster templates (like space template that makes an aquatic or flying monster into a space-creature... space kraken.) And a living ship template (for rules on putting vehicle components on a creature... like mounting them to a living creature or sculpting them into a construct or undead monster... or surgicaly/magicaly altered other creatures: example is a necromancer's nightwing livingship.)
A player's handbook with new gear, magic, feats, and PrCs.
Cosmos rules with an Extended component lists (the ones in the core rules will be generic with little refrence to tech or magic or spicific types of power or engines, etc) complete with tech/magic/psionic levels. Almost a meta-setting or setting-option.

 

[Wyvern]

Wow!

I check the Cosmonomicon forum for the first time in about a month, and I find that you posted earlier the same day! How's that for coincidence? Unfortunately I didn't have time yesterday to post a reply right then, but here are my thoughts.

First off, I admire your dedication to finishing this project. I hope it doesn't take too much time away from other activities, especially with Christmas looming.

Your plan to narrow the focus of the project sounds like a good one, if it gets the job done. Naturally I'm a bit disappointed that the rules I wrote for tech and magic levels didn't make the cut, but as you said, they're really more suited as a stand-alone toolkit for multiversal campaigns. Maybe I should rewrite them for that purpose and start promoting them in other forums, such as the various threads about d20 Future on the Wizards message boards. I've been tempted to do so in the past, but it didn't seem appropriate because the threads didn't have anything to do with flight per se. However, if I plug them as multiversal rules and mention their origin in passing, I might be able to drum up more publicity for the Cosmonomicon.

Anyhow, I'll try to check the forum more regularly in the future. Let me know if there's anything I can help with (barring playtesting, which I'm not in a position to do). My offer of proof-reading assistance still stands.

God bless,

Wyvern

 

[BlackJaw]

Proof reading is one of those things I will always need help with. THe first person I want to go over it (however) is one of my players.

The danger I'm working with right now is that I know these rules fairly well because I wrote a lot of them (in fact I know 3+ versions of many rules) and I want to make sure what we have here is something that can be understood by people that only know the core rules, or in my player's cases: only mostly know the core rules (I'm the DM so I know the rules much more then they).

He can let me know what is unclear, what needs more explination, etc. I figure proof reading before that isn't as improtant as proof reading after any new changes I make.

Anway, I'm working on the player section tonight.
First new change: I like the pilot core class, but its a little weak in that outside an aircraft or a flight spell he has no special powers. I would like to tweak that so some of his powers are more generaly useful. I'm going to add an armor class bonus that is always on (a dodge bonus that transfers to the vehicle he pilots) and maybe add something else that works in and out of the air etc.

I'm still working on the whole vehicle creation system. I'm going to have to strip out all but a handful of spicific item types. an engine mechanic instead of a list of engines. a gun mechanic instead of seperate sizes and types of guns, etc. This is the reason I had to remove those Cosmos tech/magic/psionic types. That would make the mechanic much harder to do, especialy as the tech levels would be part of the balancing & pricing mechanics/etc. The exceptions will be seige weapons from the DMG (balistas, catapults) sails, and Blimps. the sails and blimp need special rules and are common in fantasy flight vehicles, and the DMG seige weapons are common and cheap/etc and will need to over-ride the rules in the DMG which while fine for something you find in a dungeon, won't do in a skyship battle. (no bab on ballistas and the fire/re-aim mechanic of catapults).

I would be interested in a big selection of pre-made parts (which would be a great Cosmos meta-setting guide section) at some point in the future. Tech rattings would be much easier to set on a spicific items. as will a less generic power source rules. (as in power types). That would also be the best book to put PrCs in. I have envisioned a mechanic PrC that forms a bond with his vehicle (it gains HD as he gains levels, and gets special upgrades and he makes it better etc) I guess that's also the best book to put monster stuff in.

Hey, if the Cosmo works out, the Cosmos could follow! I wouldn't mind that at all.

Of course I also got this big urge to try and do some Time Travel stuff which is unrelated to all the above. anway: back to work, and nice to hear from you.

PS: my dedication isn't so great. I haven't done much with the project in the past how many months? exactly. most people would figure this project dead long ago and I'm struggling to prove to myself that I can finish it. I'm not sure the guys and Dark Portal will even know what I'm talking about when (not if, please not if) I e-mail them asking for that art and layout they said they'd provide for the project.

 

[barsoomcore]

Ah, heck, look who's here!

Merry Christmas everyone. Sorry for my own silences and lack of work.

BlackJaw -- are you rewriting the stuff we had previously? What was left to do with that was the descriptions of the vehicle components -- my job, sorry for never finishing it.

I'm happy to look over your material and help with editing, of course. Just let me know. And if continuing to work on the components would be helpful I'll probably get around to that one of these days.

Right now I'm working on a d20 Modern SRD using PHP and having a lot of fun. Look for it soon online!

 

[BlackJaw]

I'm not rewriting the stuff we had previously so much as reworking minor parts of it. I started by taking that PDF you made and making adjustments I've come to thing of as better. I've also been making things more compatible with the 3.5 rules.

Example: as much sense as it makes for vehicles to move their full speed regardless of if its a move action or double move action, that becomes complicated if your trying to teach this system to a new player or a player that only sort of has the SRD down. My example here are my players in my home game. they vary considerable in their knowledge of the D20 rules, and it is easier and not especaily detrimental to let vehicles move twice their standard distance on a double steer a (vehicle) action, etc.

As far as what you wrote Barsoomcore, aside from some tweaks it mostly taking what you wrote word for word and just re-aranging it's format a bit. The introduction is a seperate section now, and I move the manuvering rules into the first chapter. now the first chapter covers facing, manuvering rules, the scale and new sizes, etc. the second chapter covers stunts, collision checks, etc. the third chapter covers combat, which is mostly just saying that aside from the manuvering rules and the vehicle weapon attack type, everything works mostly as you would expect. teh fourth chapter is on characters and related rules. I have 3 skills Piolting (flight), Piloting (Vehicle), and Signaling. I have one new feat Vehicle Proficencey. I've just written the 1-2 pages on various classes in a flight setting (Druids are amazingly adaptable in such games by the way) and I need to write a word or two about the NPC classes (experts are the common pilots of a flight heavy setting) then do a full write up PHB style for my slightly modified Aviator core class.
Then I do a section of enivromental rules (atmosphere/void/liquid, gravity, weather). 95% of this work isn't new stuff, its stuff you guys (or I) did already I'm just cutting the fat off, updating it to 3.5, making a couple of tweaks I've thougha bout and then trying to put it all in one package.

anway: here is a list of the changes I have made this far:
1) I've been making a lot of hte places we used the term "vessel" into Vehicle as the rules listed in those spots don't apply to flying monsters. right now there are no monsters with with power scores, and they arn't immune to non-lethal damage etc. Its less confusing when the rules are spicific.
2) In that same vein, it is now a "steer a vehicle" action. There are a few subtle but inportant diffrences between a steer a vehicle action and a move action. creatures that fly make move actions not steer a vehicle actions. Theya re able to do anything a steer a vehicle action can do only they use a move-action instead. one example here is that a steer a vehicle action draws an attack of opertunity, while a move action doesn't (but movement does). that is a pilot in some one's threat radius takes an attack of opertunity as he starts to move, while a dragon shouldn't take one from a guy on its back because the dragon isn't moving out of hsi threat radius (he moving with the dragon after all)... yah it sounds complicated here but it made sense when I wrote it in. I basicly said pilots of vehicles make steer a vehicle action, while creatures make move actions that can mimic anything a steer a vehicle action can do. simple to write, hard to explain why a diffrence is needed.
3) pilots of vehilces that take two steer a vehicle actions move twice as far, get 2 stunts and double their max turn. In other words they work just like mosnters that take a dobule move action in flight. its just simpler this way. Yes I know I once argued the other direction on this point but I was wrong. its simplier this way.
4) all vehicle weapons use the vehicle's size penalty. static weapons can only be fired by the pilot, while mounted ones can be used by anyone.
5) the pilot core class gets dodge bonuses along is 20 levels that count all the time, not just in a vehicle. Just thing of him as very on edge or something. basicaly i don't want all his powers to only work when flying. a couple should still be aplicable outside a vehicle. I'm still looking for another feature to give him along those lines. I might just stick to some bonus feats and couple of skill boosts/take 10 in combat etc things.
6) the 3.5 system defines scale and grid sizes a bit diffrent then 3.0, and this has after a bit of work, made things eaiser to do. the chart in the first chapter now lists the scale size and space sizes and reach sizes (all now standardized in 3.5) for each size craft.
7) while I'm on the topic, the last change was that I removed the vehicel size names. that is to say that a medium vehicle is the size of a medium character. this is a little funny to say, but its less complicated to run then having two diffrent sizes (a medium vehicle = a huge object/character). I found our examples in most sections were already using the wrong vehicle sizes or modifiers, and if we can't get it right in examples then its too complicated to teach. now its just the same size scale you'd see anywhere else... but extended by a few extra collosal+ sizes (which will not often be used in most games anyway)

As you can see that's not a rewrite, that's some tweaking and rearranging. in most cases I don't even need to rewrite anything more then a sentance. You will still be able to see your work in the project, mostly line for line. I'm just trying to finish it by taking out any parts that were slowing us down and weren't needed.
1) the meta-setting tech/science/etc rattings. ways to define a planet, etc. cool ideas, but not strickly needed. I'll just make all the components very generic pricing to speed/damage/etc mechanics instead of diffrent tech types etc. This isn't a setting guide. people that own dragon star know what tehc they would allow, and already have rules to define a planet. those planet definging rules don't affect combat in space above the planet and generaly arn't needed to rune a battle in the atmosphere of that planet, then they arn't needed in this core ruleset.
2) setting guides, dm advice, etc. this is now just flight and vehicle rules
3) any refrences to vehicles outside those for flight. I've kept air, space, and liquid because those work the best in our rules. Heck water enviroments are fiarly simple, we just need some bits in the enviroment sectino (which are already written up!). land vehicles and burrowing are not refrenced at all because they would require more work to function. I might include a side bar somewhere that the rules could work easily with those vehicles (cars = vehicles without altitude rules, burrowing = no plummeting rules and everyone has total cover) but I wouldn't want to adjust all the rules to work in those situations. water, air, a void work basicaly as the rules are written right now, so those are the defualt types. or to put it another way: these are flight rules not all purpose vehicle rules. they can easily work in the capacity for naval battles, land vehicles, and burrowing vehicles, but it is simplier to present them in a flight context.

I am still proud of how well they work to describe any vehicle movement.

 

[Wyvern]

2) In that same vein, it is now a "steer a vehicle" action. There are a few subtle but inportant diffrences between a steer a vehicle action and a move action. creatures that fly make move actions not steer a vehicle actions. Theya re able to do anything a steer a vehicle action can do only they use a move-action instead. one example here is that a steer a vehicle action draws an attack of opertunity, while a move action doesn't (but movement does). that is a pilot in some one's threat radius takes an attack of opertunity as he starts to move, while a dragon shouldn't take one from a guy on its back because the dragon isn't moving out of hsi threat radius (he moving with the dragon after all)... yah it sounds complicated here but it made sense when I wrote it in. I basicly said pilots of vehicles make steer a vehicle action, while creatures make move actions that can mimic anything a steer a vehicle action can do. simple to write, hard to explain why a diffrence is needed.

A couple of points that need clarification:

First, a "steer a vehicle" action is a move-equivalent action, right? In 3.5, move-equivalent actions are referred to simply as move actions, regardless of whether they actually involve movement, and some move actions *do* provoke attacks of opportunity. So I'm not sure what you mean by saying that steering a vehicle is like a move action except that it provokes an AoO. Could it be that you have your terms confused?

Secondly, when you say that a "steer a vehicle" action provokes attacks of opportunity "as he starts to move", do you mean that the vehicle itself is subject to attacks of opportunity, or that the pilot is subject to AoO from opponents on the vehicle with him? If it's the former, I think that vehicles should be subject to the same rules for AoO as creatures: that is, sometimes they provoke AoO when they move, and sometimes they don't. If it's the latter (the pilot provokes AoO while steering), that makes sense, but then I'm left wondering what you mean by "as he starts to move," since the pilot isn't actually moving in the usual sense (rather, he's moving the vehicle that he's in).

3) pilots of vehilces that take two steer a vehicle actions move twice as far, get 2 stunts and double their max turn. In other words they work just like mosnters that take a dobule move action in flight. its just simpler this way. Yes I know I once argued the other direction on this point but I was wrong. its simplier this way.

I have an idea for a compromise solution. I don't know that it's any *simpler* than the current rule, but it may be more intuitive. My solution is this: A vehicle can travel up to 4x its base speed in a round (5x if the pilot has the Speed Demon feat). An uncontrolled vehicle continues to move in a straight line at its current speed (i.e. the speed at which it moved the previous round). A "steer a vehicle" action is needed to change a vehicle's speed or altitude, turn it, avoid a collision or perform a stunt, but not merely to move it. Thus, it's meaningless to talk about a "double move" for a vehicle, because a vehicle moves however far the pilot wants it to move in a round (within limits, of course) regardless of whether he makes one "steer a vehicle" action or two. Changing the speed of a vehicle is a move action with no check required. A pilot can also attempt to change speed while performing a stunt, but this adds a +5 to the DC of the stunt.

This also allows for an easy solution to the question of how to deal with acceleration. As an optional rule, a pilot can only increase or decrease a vehicle's speed by an amount equal to its base speed with one "steer a vehicle" action, unless the vehicle is specially equipped for fast acceleration, or unless he has the Speed Demon feat. Note that if he spends a full round accelerating or decelerating, he can modify the speed by up to twice the base speed. A medium or heavy cargo load affects a vehicle's base speed for the purpose of acceleration or deceleration, but not its maximum speed.

Wyvern

P.S. Glad to see you're still with us, barsoomcore! Happy New Year!

 

[BlackJaw]

Move action, not move-equivilent (I'll need to fix that, thanks)

ok, here is what I mean. Lets say you got a sci-fi style space ship (Dragonstar is a good example here) and you got a pilot at the controls. working those controls draws an attack of oppertunity (its sort of like spell casting only wihtout any concentration checks). A Dragon does not draw an attack of opertunity simply for flapping its wings (A hovering dragon for example). That is the main diffrence. Also, a dragon just takes move actions, while a vehicle's pilot messes with controls that makes the vessel move for him, so it should be called a move... he isn't really the one moving. then again under the new 3.5 wording you pointed out I may need to change all this.

Note: Anyone moving through a threatened space takes attacks of oppertunity normaly (vessels, vehicles, creatures, etc). I did rule that an attack of oppertunity taken due to a vehicle's movements can be aimed at the vehicle, any of its exposed systems, and any exposed passengers... but you still only get 1 attack (instead of 1 attack of opertunity againts the vehicle, another for each exposed passenger... which would be the by the book answer otherwise for people with combat reflexes)

that is the slight diffrence between dragon(creature) flight and vehicle flight, or why creatures don't use steer a vessel actions, which is why I renamed it to steer a vehicle action.

NEXT:
ok, here we go again. The system I'm switching to now (double move = double speed) is simplier because it works exactly the same for everyone and everything.It's like walking, its like swiming, its like climbing, its like a flying eagle or dragon. It's not especialy realistic, but it is simple. based off my own testing with my players (which are very between knowing most rules and not seeming to know even basic ones) anything more complicated is just that, more complicated... and realism isn't what the D&D or D20 system is designed to do. Just look at hit points and armor class as concepts. heck look at the concept of round based combat. Its all just desinged to make this playable and fun. PS: have you ever tried to do something complicated and distracting (say like read a newspaper, shave, eat breakfast, etc) while driving? is it something you feel would be much more dificult to do while flooring the gas? that's my logical justification for a decision made entirely for gameplay & learning curve reasons.

You could just think of it as requiring extra attention from the pilot to fly faster & farther. And yes an out of control vehicle continues to move its current speed (what ever speed it traveled last round) in its current direction (it also becomes flat footed and auto-fails any piloting checks or reflex saves... nasty spot to be in really). This applies to creatures also, but they don't go out of control as easily.

What we had before was that a vehilce could move its full speed each round but even on a double action it still couldn't move any faster than that... extra move actions let the pilot make more turns/be more manuverable. that is basicly what you are proposing (only using speed x4). Yes its more realistic compared to what we know about both flight and the physics of spacecrafts/objects in 0g with no air friction (nod to the astral plane)... but its more complicated in a system that can already get as complicated as any bull-ruch, mounted trample attack, or multiple opponent grapple in the core rules. I remember arguing (effectively too) before that the more realistic version was better before... but having tried it out I've found it hard to use. I'm trying to keep the basics of the system closer to d20/D&D:
you take 2 move actions and you move twice as far.