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<blockquote data-quote="BlackJaw" data-source="post: 1285223" data-attributes="member: 888"><p>I'm not rewriting the stuff we had previously so much as reworking minor parts of it. I started by taking that PDF you made and making adjustments I've come to thing of as better. I've also been making things more compatible with the 3.5 rules.</p><p></p><p>Example: as much sense as it makes for vehicles to move their full speed regardless of if its a move action or double move action, that becomes complicated if your trying to teach this system to a new player or a player that only sort of has the SRD down. My example here are my players in my home game. they vary considerable in their knowledge of the D20 rules, and it is easier and not especaily detrimental to let vehicles move twice their standard distance on a double steer a (vehicle) action, etc.</p><p></p><p>As far as what you wrote Barsoomcore, aside from some tweaks it mostly taking what you wrote word for word and just re-aranging it's format a bit. The introduction is a seperate section now, and I move the manuvering rules into the first chapter. now the first chapter covers facing, manuvering rules, the scale and new sizes, etc. the second chapter covers stunts, collision checks, etc. the third chapter covers combat, which is mostly just saying that aside from the manuvering rules and the vehicle weapon attack type, everything works mostly as you would expect. teh fourth chapter is on characters and related rules. I have 3 skills Piolting (flight), Piloting (Vehicle), and Signaling. I have one new feat Vehicle Proficencey. I've just written the 1-2 pages on various classes in a flight setting (Druids are amazingly adaptable in such games by the way) and I need to write a word or two about the NPC classes (experts are the common pilots of a flight heavy setting) then do a full write up PHB style for my slightly modified Aviator core class.</p><p>Then I do a section of enivromental rules (atmosphere/void/liquid, gravity, weather). 95% of this work isn't new stuff, its stuff you guys (or I) did already I'm just cutting the fat off, updating it to 3.5, making a couple of tweaks I've thougha bout and then trying to put it all in one package.</p><p></p><p>anway: here is a list of the changes I have made this far:</p><p>1) I've been making a lot of hte places we used the term "vessel" into Vehicle as the rules listed in those spots don't apply to flying monsters. right now there are no monsters with with power scores, and they arn't immune to non-lethal damage etc. Its less confusing when the rules are spicific.</p><p>2) In that same vein, it is now a "steer a vehicle" action. There are a few subtle but inportant diffrences between a steer a vehicle action and a move action. creatures that fly make move actions not steer a vehicle actions. Theya re able to do anything a steer a vehicle action can do only they use a move-action instead. one example here is that a steer a vehicle action draws an attack of opertunity, while a move action doesn't (but movement does). that is a pilot in some one's threat radius takes an attack of opertunity as he starts to move, while a dragon shouldn't take one from a guy on its back because the dragon isn't moving out of hsi threat radius (he moving with the dragon after all)... yah it sounds complicated here but it made sense when I wrote it in. I basicly said pilots of vehicles make steer a vehicle action, while creatures make move actions that can mimic anything a steer a vehicle action can do. simple to write, hard to explain why a diffrence is needed.</p><p>3) pilots of vehilces that take two steer a vehicle actions move twice as far, get 2 stunts and double their max turn. In other words they work just like mosnters that take a dobule move action in flight. its just simpler this way. Yes I know I once argued the other direction on this point but I was wrong. its simplier this way.</p><p>4) all vehicle weapons use the vehicle's size penalty. static weapons can only be fired by the pilot, while mounted ones can be used by anyone.</p><p>5) the pilot core class gets dodge bonuses along is 20 levels that count all the time, not just in a vehicle. Just thing of him as very on edge or something. basicaly i don't want all his powers to only work when flying. a couple should still be aplicable outside a vehicle. I'm still looking for another feature to give him along those lines. I might just stick to some bonus feats and couple of skill boosts/take 10 in combat etc things.</p><p>6) the 3.5 system defines scale and grid sizes a bit diffrent then 3.0, and this has after a bit of work, made things eaiser to do. the chart in the first chapter now lists the scale size and space sizes and reach sizes (all now standardized in 3.5) for each size craft.</p><p>7) while I'm on the topic, the last change was that I removed the vehicel size names. that is to say that a medium vehicle is the size of a medium character. this is a little funny to say, but its less complicated to run then having two diffrent sizes (a medium vehicle = a huge object/character). I found our examples in most sections were already using the wrong vehicle sizes or modifiers, and if we can't get it right in examples then its too complicated to teach. now its just the same size scale you'd see anywhere else... but extended by a few extra collosal+ sizes (which will not often be used in most games anyway)</p><p></p><p>As you can see that's not a rewrite, that's some tweaking and rearranging. in most cases I don't even need to rewrite anything more then a sentance. You will still be able to see your work in the project, mostly line for line. I'm just trying to finish it by taking out any parts that were slowing us down and weren't needed.</p><p>1) the meta-setting tech/science/etc rattings. ways to define a planet, etc. cool ideas, but not strickly needed. I'll just make all the components very generic pricing to speed/damage/etc mechanics instead of diffrent tech types etc. This isn't a setting guide. people that own dragon star know what tehc they would allow, and already have rules to define a planet. those planet definging rules don't affect combat in space above the planet and generaly arn't needed to rune a battle in the atmosphere of that planet, then they arn't needed in this core ruleset.</p><p>2) setting guides, dm advice, etc. this is now just flight and vehicle rules</p><p>3) any refrences to vehicles outside those for flight. I've kept air, space, and liquid because those work the best in our rules. Heck water enviroments are fiarly simple, we just need some bits in the enviroment sectino (which are already written up!). land vehicles and burrowing are not refrenced at all because they would require more work to function. I might include a side bar somewhere that the rules could work easily with those vehicles (cars = vehicles without altitude rules, burrowing = no plummeting rules and everyone has total cover) but I wouldn't want to adjust all the rules to work in those situations. water, air, a void work basicaly as the rules are written right now, so those are the defualt types. or to put it another way: these are flight rules not all purpose vehicle rules. they can easily work in the capacity for naval battles, land vehicles, and burrowing vehicles, but it is simplier to present them in a flight context.</p><p></p><p>I am still proud of how well they work to describe any vehicle movement.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BlackJaw, post: 1285223, member: 888"] I'm not rewriting the stuff we had previously so much as reworking minor parts of it. I started by taking that PDF you made and making adjustments I've come to thing of as better. I've also been making things more compatible with the 3.5 rules. Example: as much sense as it makes for vehicles to move their full speed regardless of if its a move action or double move action, that becomes complicated if your trying to teach this system to a new player or a player that only sort of has the SRD down. My example here are my players in my home game. they vary considerable in their knowledge of the D20 rules, and it is easier and not especaily detrimental to let vehicles move twice their standard distance on a double steer a (vehicle) action, etc. As far as what you wrote Barsoomcore, aside from some tweaks it mostly taking what you wrote word for word and just re-aranging it's format a bit. The introduction is a seperate section now, and I move the manuvering rules into the first chapter. now the first chapter covers facing, manuvering rules, the scale and new sizes, etc. the second chapter covers stunts, collision checks, etc. the third chapter covers combat, which is mostly just saying that aside from the manuvering rules and the vehicle weapon attack type, everything works mostly as you would expect. teh fourth chapter is on characters and related rules. I have 3 skills Piolting (flight), Piloting (Vehicle), and Signaling. I have one new feat Vehicle Proficencey. I've just written the 1-2 pages on various classes in a flight setting (Druids are amazingly adaptable in such games by the way) and I need to write a word or two about the NPC classes (experts are the common pilots of a flight heavy setting) then do a full write up PHB style for my slightly modified Aviator core class. Then I do a section of enivromental rules (atmosphere/void/liquid, gravity, weather). 95% of this work isn't new stuff, its stuff you guys (or I) did already I'm just cutting the fat off, updating it to 3.5, making a couple of tweaks I've thougha bout and then trying to put it all in one package. anway: here is a list of the changes I have made this far: 1) I've been making a lot of hte places we used the term "vessel" into Vehicle as the rules listed in those spots don't apply to flying monsters. right now there are no monsters with with power scores, and they arn't immune to non-lethal damage etc. Its less confusing when the rules are spicific. 2) In that same vein, it is now a "steer a vehicle" action. There are a few subtle but inportant diffrences between a steer a vehicle action and a move action. creatures that fly make move actions not steer a vehicle actions. Theya re able to do anything a steer a vehicle action can do only they use a move-action instead. one example here is that a steer a vehicle action draws an attack of opertunity, while a move action doesn't (but movement does). that is a pilot in some one's threat radius takes an attack of opertunity as he starts to move, while a dragon shouldn't take one from a guy on its back because the dragon isn't moving out of hsi threat radius (he moving with the dragon after all)... yah it sounds complicated here but it made sense when I wrote it in. I basicly said pilots of vehicles make steer a vehicle action, while creatures make move actions that can mimic anything a steer a vehicle action can do. simple to write, hard to explain why a diffrence is needed. 3) pilots of vehilces that take two steer a vehicle actions move twice as far, get 2 stunts and double their max turn. In other words they work just like mosnters that take a dobule move action in flight. its just simpler this way. Yes I know I once argued the other direction on this point but I was wrong. its simplier this way. 4) all vehicle weapons use the vehicle's size penalty. static weapons can only be fired by the pilot, while mounted ones can be used by anyone. 5) the pilot core class gets dodge bonuses along is 20 levels that count all the time, not just in a vehicle. Just thing of him as very on edge or something. basicaly i don't want all his powers to only work when flying. a couple should still be aplicable outside a vehicle. I'm still looking for another feature to give him along those lines. I might just stick to some bonus feats and couple of skill boosts/take 10 in combat etc things. 6) the 3.5 system defines scale and grid sizes a bit diffrent then 3.0, and this has after a bit of work, made things eaiser to do. the chart in the first chapter now lists the scale size and space sizes and reach sizes (all now standardized in 3.5) for each size craft. 7) while I'm on the topic, the last change was that I removed the vehicel size names. that is to say that a medium vehicle is the size of a medium character. this is a little funny to say, but its less complicated to run then having two diffrent sizes (a medium vehicle = a huge object/character). I found our examples in most sections were already using the wrong vehicle sizes or modifiers, and if we can't get it right in examples then its too complicated to teach. now its just the same size scale you'd see anywhere else... but extended by a few extra collosal+ sizes (which will not often be used in most games anyway) As you can see that's not a rewrite, that's some tweaking and rearranging. in most cases I don't even need to rewrite anything more then a sentance. You will still be able to see your work in the project, mostly line for line. I'm just trying to finish it by taking out any parts that were slowing us down and weren't needed. 1) the meta-setting tech/science/etc rattings. ways to define a planet, etc. cool ideas, but not strickly needed. I'll just make all the components very generic pricing to speed/damage/etc mechanics instead of diffrent tech types etc. This isn't a setting guide. people that own dragon star know what tehc they would allow, and already have rules to define a planet. those planet definging rules don't affect combat in space above the planet and generaly arn't needed to rune a battle in the atmosphere of that planet, then they arn't needed in this core ruleset. 2) setting guides, dm advice, etc. this is now just flight and vehicle rules 3) any refrences to vehicles outside those for flight. I've kept air, space, and liquid because those work the best in our rules. Heck water enviroments are fiarly simple, we just need some bits in the enviroment sectino (which are already written up!). land vehicles and burrowing are not refrenced at all because they would require more work to function. I might include a side bar somewhere that the rules could work easily with those vehicles (cars = vehicles without altitude rules, burrowing = no plummeting rules and everyone has total cover) but I wouldn't want to adjust all the rules to work in those situations. water, air, a void work basicaly as the rules are written right now, so those are the defualt types. or to put it another way: these are flight rules not all purpose vehicle rules. they can easily work in the capacity for naval battles, land vehicles, and burrowing vehicles, but it is simplier to present them in a flight context. I am still proud of how well they work to describe any vehicle movement. [/QUOTE]
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