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New Excerpts - Tome of Battle & Dragons of Faerun
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<blockquote data-quote="Mazlo" data-source="post: 2985914" data-attributes="member: 10795"><p><strong>Fighter vs. Warblade</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Human Fighter 6 vs. Human Warblade 6</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p></p><p>Using only core rules and what is posted on the web sneak peek for Tome of Battle. If I remember correctly, some statistic stated something along the lines that "most games take place between 1st and 12th level", so I decided to put the two classes side by side at 6th level.</p><p></p><p>Both characters focus on wielding Halberds and using Improved Trip. Both characters have moderate wealth for their level: a +1 Halberd, a +1 suit of armor (Fullplate or Breastplate,) and a Ring of Protection +1. Neither character's build is optimized - feat selection and ability scores may be better chosen. This side-by-side comparison is only to meant to compare two fighter-type characters aiming for the same goal and to see who ends up better.</p><p></p><p>----------------</p><p><strong>Abilities</strong></p><p>Exactly the same, built using 28 point buy. </p><p>STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 8</p><p></p><p><strong>Feats</strong></p><p>Fighter (7): Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Iron Will</p><p></p><p>Warblade (5): Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Skills</strong></p><p>Fighter: 5 skills maxed out</p><p>Warblade: 7 skills maxed out. </p><p></p><p>Fighter Skill List: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim.</p><p></p><p>Warblade Skill List: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Martial Lore*, Swim, Tumble</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Defense</strong></p><p>Fighter</p><p>AC 21, Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +4, Will +4</p><p>HD: 6d10+12 (49 hp)</p><p></p><p>Warblade</p><p>AC 19, Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +6, Will +2</p><p>HD: 6d12+12 (56 hp)</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Offense</strong></p><p>Fighter</p><p>+11/+6 Halberd (1d10+7) [Trip +7]</p><p></p><p>Warblade</p><p>+11/+6 Halberd (1d10+7) [Trip +7]</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Specials</strong></p><p>Fighter does not receive any.</p><p></p><p>The Warblade receives Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor (+INT to confirm criticals), and maneuvers.</p><p></p><p>The Warblade in question readies the following maneuvers:</p><p>Steel Wind - Strike two adjacent enemies as a standard action</p><p>Steely Strike - +4 to attack vs. one foe, all other foes +4 to attack vs. you</p><p>Wall of Blades - use an attack roll in place of your AC as an immediate action</p><p>Iron Heart Surge - negate a negative condition as a standard action</p><p></p><p>----------------</p><p><strong>The Breakdown</strong></p><p><em>Feats</em> - The Fighter wins here with the addition of Cleave and Iron Will.</p><p></p><p><em>Skills</em> - The Warblade is the clear winner here. A better skill list and more skill points.</p><p></p><p><em>Defense </em>- The Fighter has slightly better AC. The Fighter has better saves (Will saves are generally more important than Reflex saves.) The Warblade has 7 more hp than the Fighter, almost a whole HD more. Both can use Combat Expertise to boost their AC. Probably a tie but see the Specials category.</p><p></p><p><em>Offense</em> - Exactly the same. Both can use Power Attack to boost their damage. Another tie.</p><p></p><p><em>Specials</em> - The Warblade clearly wins here. But lets go into a little detail here.</p><p>Steel Wind - now the Warblade doesn't need Cleave, he can automatically attack two foes without having to down one first (but he does lose his iterative attack if he uses this maneuver.)</p><p></p><p>Steely Strike - Great for encounters that only have one foe. A free +4 to hit.</p><p></p><p>Wall of Blades - the Warblade on an average roll, will increase his AC to 21 against one attack (the same as the Fighter.) And since the better result is used (attack roll or your normal AC), the Warblade is never hurt by using this maneuver. Fifty percent of the time when using this maneuver, the Warblade's AC will be better than the Fighter's (for one attack.)</p><p></p><p>Iron Heart Surge - As long as he can take a standard action, the Warblade can now free himself from all those annoying spells that take the Fighter right out of the fight. Entangle? Web? Confusion (on a round where you get to act normally)? </p><p></p><p>----------------</p><p><strong>Conclusion</strong></p><p>In my opinion, before the Maneuvers are included, the Warblade is a pretty even with the Fighter. Before Maneuvers are considered, essentially the Warblade loses a few feats in exchange for better skills, uncanny dodge, more hit points, and a few "icing on the cake" intelligence-based abilities. That's fair. But once you add in the maneuvers, the Warblade is clearly better.</p><p></p><p>This is a pretty vanilla example. I think things would be even worse once you start trying to really optimize. I haven't playtested it but on first glance and after a simple comparison, I wouldn't allow someone to play a Warblade in my game.</p><p></p><p>--Mazlo</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mazlo, post: 2985914, member: 10795"] [b]Fighter vs. Warblade[/b] [B]Human Fighter 6 vs. Human Warblade 6 [/B] Using only core rules and what is posted on the web sneak peek for Tome of Battle. If I remember correctly, some statistic stated something along the lines that "most games take place between 1st and 12th level", so I decided to put the two classes side by side at 6th level. Both characters focus on wielding Halberds and using Improved Trip. Both characters have moderate wealth for their level: a +1 Halberd, a +1 suit of armor (Fullplate or Breastplate,) and a Ring of Protection +1. Neither character's build is optimized - feat selection and ability scores may be better chosen. This side-by-side comparison is only to meant to compare two fighter-type characters aiming for the same goal and to see who ends up better. ---------------- [B]Abilities[/B] Exactly the same, built using 28 point buy. STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 8 [B]Feats[/B] Fighter (7): Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Iron Will Warblade (5): Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack [B]Skills[/B] Fighter: 5 skills maxed out Warblade: 7 skills maxed out. Fighter Skill List: Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, and Swim. Warblade Skill List: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Martial Lore*, Swim, Tumble [B]Defense[/B] Fighter AC 21, Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +4, Will +4 HD: 6d10+12 (49 hp) Warblade AC 19, Saves: Fort +7, Reflex +6, Will +2 HD: 6d12+12 (56 hp) [B]Offense[/B] Fighter +11/+6 Halberd (1d10+7) [Trip +7] Warblade +11/+6 Halberd (1d10+7) [Trip +7] [B]Specials[/B] Fighter does not receive any. The Warblade receives Uncanny Dodge, Battle Ardor (+INT to confirm criticals), and maneuvers. The Warblade in question readies the following maneuvers: Steel Wind - Strike two adjacent enemies as a standard action Steely Strike - +4 to attack vs. one foe, all other foes +4 to attack vs. you Wall of Blades - use an attack roll in place of your AC as an immediate action Iron Heart Surge - negate a negative condition as a standard action ---------------- [B]The Breakdown[/B] [I]Feats[/I] - The Fighter wins here with the addition of Cleave and Iron Will. [I]Skills[/I] - The Warblade is the clear winner here. A better skill list and more skill points. [I]Defense [/I]- The Fighter has slightly better AC. The Fighter has better saves (Will saves are generally more important than Reflex saves.) The Warblade has 7 more hp than the Fighter, almost a whole HD more. Both can use Combat Expertise to boost their AC. Probably a tie but see the Specials category. [I]Offense[/I] - Exactly the same. Both can use Power Attack to boost their damage. Another tie. [I]Specials[/I] - The Warblade clearly wins here. But lets go into a little detail here. Steel Wind - now the Warblade doesn't need Cleave, he can automatically attack two foes without having to down one first (but he does lose his iterative attack if he uses this maneuver.) Steely Strike - Great for encounters that only have one foe. A free +4 to hit. Wall of Blades - the Warblade on an average roll, will increase his AC to 21 against one attack (the same as the Fighter.) And since the better result is used (attack roll or your normal AC), the Warblade is never hurt by using this maneuver. Fifty percent of the time when using this maneuver, the Warblade's AC will be better than the Fighter's (for one attack.) Iron Heart Surge - As long as he can take a standard action, the Warblade can now free himself from all those annoying spells that take the Fighter right out of the fight. Entangle? Web? Confusion (on a round where you get to act normally)? ---------------- [B]Conclusion[/B] In my opinion, before the Maneuvers are included, the Warblade is a pretty even with the Fighter. Before Maneuvers are considered, essentially the Warblade loses a few feats in exchange for better skills, uncanny dodge, more hit points, and a few "icing on the cake" intelligence-based abilities. That's fair. But once you add in the maneuvers, the Warblade is clearly better. This is a pretty vanilla example. I think things would be even worse once you start trying to really optimize. I haven't playtested it but on first glance and after a simple comparison, I wouldn't allow someone to play a Warblade in my game. --Mazlo [/QUOTE]
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