Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
New Legend and Lore is up! Magic Systems as DM Modules
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6025450" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Largely. FireLance posited that changing a wizard to a spell point system was not much different than taking a 4e Fighter, crossing out the word Fighter, and putting Ranger in there instead.</p><p></p><p>My position is that while I don't think he's entirely off base, I think there's more to it than that, since a 5e class ought to feel different from other 5e classes regardless of the chosen mechanics, while a 4e class is going to feel broadly similar to other 4e classes, regardless of which 4e class you choose. In other words, the differences between 5e classes should be greater than the differences between 4e classes, which will make the choice of class (independent of the choice of magic mechanic) still significant. </p><p></p><p>I don't know if that'll come true or not, of course, it's just a hope. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> </p><p></p><p>I think it's important to point out for context that I'm in the camp that sees 4e classes as "too similar." IMO, "I'm a Defender, so I mark!" and "I'm a Striker, so I have an extra damage dice!" isn't a strong enough distinction between the classes for me, and I hope that 5e has much more marked differences. I don't think those differences must hinge on a given "special abilities" structure. An ADEU Fighter and a Vancian fighter and an Expertise fighter should be more similar than an ADEU Fighter, an ADEU Wizard, and an ADEU Ranger in 5e. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If the wrought iron fence made of tigers between gameplay and story is well and truly torn down and lit on fire (which it should be, and it seems like the designers are interested in doing), "flavor text" and "rules text" are going to be closely linked. Rules text should then support and help define flavor text. If the flavor text says "X is like Y," the rules text should back it up. </p><p></p><p>Defining them by story first allows the mechanics to flow from that. You can see that in the playtest sorcerer: the story of having an otherworldly heritage is supported by the rules for mutations. I bet the next iteration of the sorcerer is going to be similarly codified in the rules by what they are in the story. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think this is part of the vagueness in Mearls's article today, in that it's not quite clear where a magic system ends and a class begins. I've got an idea about what it maybe will be like, but it could also not be anything like that. </p><p></p><p>For me, when I look at spell points or spell slots or "reserve magic" or at-will powers or recharging magic or Expertise dice or ADEU or whatever, I see a method of resource accounting and nothing more or less. Memorization can be mapped to ANY of those systems, or not (3e's Wizard vs. 3e's Sorcerer, for spell slots, for an example). Sponateous magic can also be mapped to the same. You could theoretically have a spell-slot based campaign and still have entirely encounter-based magic. Or you could have a sort of Magical Expertise dice and still memorize your spells at the start of the day. These things are different gears, different silos, and you can combine them in different ways. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It gets to the heart of something I think the message boards have been conflating for a long time, now.</p><p></p><p>What, PRECISELY, is a magic system, and what, PRECISELY, is each spellcasting class doing to it?</p><p></p><p>3e gives an example of a spell slot system (what I'd call Vancian) and a spell point system (psionics) governed in multiple ways, from memorization to spontaneous casting to recharge magic to even at-wills in the case of the 3e warlock.</p><p></p><p>So I don't think memorization is necessarily linked to spell slots. You can memorize with spell points. You can memorize with at-wills. You can memorize with Expertise dice.</p><p></p><p>The question then becomes: is a Wizard, in part, about memorizing spells?</p><p></p><p>I'd say, yes, that's something that's defined wizards in EVERY edition. But certainly that's a topic of potential debate.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6025450, member: 2067"] Largely. FireLance posited that changing a wizard to a spell point system was not much different than taking a 4e Fighter, crossing out the word Fighter, and putting Ranger in there instead. My position is that while I don't think he's entirely off base, I think there's more to it than that, since a 5e class ought to feel different from other 5e classes regardless of the chosen mechanics, while a 4e class is going to feel broadly similar to other 4e classes, regardless of which 4e class you choose. In other words, the differences between 5e classes should be greater than the differences between 4e classes, which will make the choice of class (independent of the choice of magic mechanic) still significant. I don't know if that'll come true or not, of course, it's just a hope. :) I think it's important to point out for context that I'm in the camp that sees 4e classes as "too similar." IMO, "I'm a Defender, so I mark!" and "I'm a Striker, so I have an extra damage dice!" isn't a strong enough distinction between the classes for me, and I hope that 5e has much more marked differences. I don't think those differences must hinge on a given "special abilities" structure. An ADEU Fighter and a Vancian fighter and an Expertise fighter should be more similar than an ADEU Fighter, an ADEU Wizard, and an ADEU Ranger in 5e. If the wrought iron fence made of tigers between gameplay and story is well and truly torn down and lit on fire (which it should be, and it seems like the designers are interested in doing), "flavor text" and "rules text" are going to be closely linked. Rules text should then support and help define flavor text. If the flavor text says "X is like Y," the rules text should back it up. Defining them by story first allows the mechanics to flow from that. You can see that in the playtest sorcerer: the story of having an otherworldly heritage is supported by the rules for mutations. I bet the next iteration of the sorcerer is going to be similarly codified in the rules by what they are in the story. I think this is part of the vagueness in Mearls's article today, in that it's not quite clear where a magic system ends and a class begins. I've got an idea about what it maybe will be like, but it could also not be anything like that. For me, when I look at spell points or spell slots or "reserve magic" or at-will powers or recharging magic or Expertise dice or ADEU or whatever, I see a method of resource accounting and nothing more or less. Memorization can be mapped to ANY of those systems, or not (3e's Wizard vs. 3e's Sorcerer, for spell slots, for an example). Sponateous magic can also be mapped to the same. You could theoretically have a spell-slot based campaign and still have entirely encounter-based magic. Or you could have a sort of Magical Expertise dice and still memorize your spells at the start of the day. These things are different gears, different silos, and you can combine them in different ways. It gets to the heart of something I think the message boards have been conflating for a long time, now. What, PRECISELY, is a magic system, and what, PRECISELY, is each spellcasting class doing to it? 3e gives an example of a spell slot system (what I'd call Vancian) and a spell point system (psionics) governed in multiple ways, from memorization to spontaneous casting to recharge magic to even at-wills in the case of the 3e warlock. So I don't think memorization is necessarily linked to spell slots. You can memorize with spell points. You can memorize with at-wills. You can memorize with Expertise dice. The question then becomes: is a Wizard, in part, about memorizing spells? I'd say, yes, that's something that's defined wizards in EVERY edition. But certainly that's a topic of potential debate. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
New Legend and Lore is up! Magic Systems as DM Modules
Top