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New Legend and Lore is up! Magic Systems as DM Modules
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6025568" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>4e classes are not overly similar to me BECAUSE they have the same structure. They are overly similar to me, AND they have the same structure. It becomes one symptom of an overall illness.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, if the main differences between the classes are found in the fiddly bits of various easily swappable power cards, then this reinforces their similarity, to me -- you don't have enough differences <em>built into the class itself</em>, if the major difference between a ranger and a fighter is one has <em>twin strike</em> and one has <em>brash strike</em>. </p><p></p><p>It's kind of how I don't think a new spell list makes for a new class. If you had a class in 3e that was identical to the cleric, but it could cast wizard spells instead of cleric spells, and maybe it had a striker dice instead of a familiar, that wouldn't be different enough for me, either. The class would be too similar. Each 2e specialty priest (with its different spheres and different granted powers) iisn't enough of a change to make an entirely separate class in my mind.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If fluff can be changed without changing the mechanics, the fence is there. 4e is often (rather rightly, IMO) credited with being one of the editions in which the re-skinning is the easiest, BECAUSE of the tenuous connection between fluff and mechanics. So it pretty clearly has the fence as a general rule. I'm sure there's some specific exceptions.</p><p></p><p>If fluff cannot be changed without changing the mechanics, the fence is gone. It does make it a little harder to reskin, but certainly not impossible, especially if you forgo microbalance or encourage expedient construction. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've known plenty of scholars who are also know-it-all dilletantes with some innate talent and intuition, and vice-versa, so I'm not sure I share this particular threshold, but more relevantly, I'm also not sure what it has to do with the particular magical mechanics.</p><p></p><p>If I have a spell-point wizard and she still memorizes her spells, she's choosing a specific group of spells to be her "spell list" for the day. She determines how many spell points to devote to which spells and later in the day, she can spend the spell points and unleash them. But (hypoethetically) part of playing the wizard as a scholar and an academic is the idea that they are the most effective when they can prepare for the trouble they're going to get into, when they have knowledge before they act, so keeping the memorization mechanic helps wizards to remain a character class that benefits from studying the situation in advance and determining which spells to best apply. </p><p></p><p>And then I have a spell-point sorcerer and he only gets one spell list, so he spends his spell points on whatever he wants whenever he wants to, and he probably has MORE than the wizard, since part of what a sorcerer has is frequent, innate magic. Spontaneity and creative spell use become more key for such a character. </p><p></p><p>And the mechanics here can inform fiction. If, in the same game, I also have a slot wizard and a slot sorcerer, the two Colleges of Magic can huff at each other, Slots accusing points of being mathematical and too in the numbers and points accusing slots of being too regimented and not accessing the pool of magical power in general. Or you can use one magic system for the "whole world," (like 3e's slots) and still retain a distinction between the classes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I wouldn't be so sure about that. People are <em>very</em> imprecise when they throw around the term "Vancian." It might mean memorization, it might mean slots, it might mean Daily abilities, it might mean spells-as-inventions...it might mean ALL of those things, or any one of those things, or potentially even none of those things. </p><p></p><p>Those things aren't necessarily a package. You can have one without another. In my mind, memorization (and thus preparation) is a key part of playing a wizard, but in my mind it's ALSO a key part of playing a wizard that they can "run out of magic" at some point (ie: is Daily-based), and clearly the designers don't agree with THAT. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> So I'm certainly not saying my idea is The Way It Is. It's a possible option.</p><p></p><p>It's also a possible option that, like others have said, they ditch the idea of unique magical classes entirely and bring back "Magic User" and let individuals decide between Scholarly Magic and Pact Magic and Heritage Magic and maybe even Divine Magic and do things that way. </p><p></p><p>It's also possible that none of those happen. </p><p></p><p>That's part of the thing with this update. It's got a lot of potential as an idea, but it's VERY vague as to what it exactly means.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6025568, member: 2067"] 4e classes are not overly similar to me BECAUSE they have the same structure. They are overly similar to me, AND they have the same structure. It becomes one symptom of an overall illness. Additionally, if the main differences between the classes are found in the fiddly bits of various easily swappable power cards, then this reinforces their similarity, to me -- you don't have enough differences [I]built into the class itself[/I], if the major difference between a ranger and a fighter is one has [I]twin strike[/I] and one has [I]brash strike[/I]. It's kind of how I don't think a new spell list makes for a new class. If you had a class in 3e that was identical to the cleric, but it could cast wizard spells instead of cleric spells, and maybe it had a striker dice instead of a familiar, that wouldn't be different enough for me, either. The class would be too similar. Each 2e specialty priest (with its different spheres and different granted powers) iisn't enough of a change to make an entirely separate class in my mind. If fluff can be changed without changing the mechanics, the fence is there. 4e is often (rather rightly, IMO) credited with being one of the editions in which the re-skinning is the easiest, BECAUSE of the tenuous connection between fluff and mechanics. So it pretty clearly has the fence as a general rule. I'm sure there's some specific exceptions. If fluff cannot be changed without changing the mechanics, the fence is gone. It does make it a little harder to reskin, but certainly not impossible, especially if you forgo microbalance or encourage expedient construction. I've known plenty of scholars who are also know-it-all dilletantes with some innate talent and intuition, and vice-versa, so I'm not sure I share this particular threshold, but more relevantly, I'm also not sure what it has to do with the particular magical mechanics. If I have a spell-point wizard and she still memorizes her spells, she's choosing a specific group of spells to be her "spell list" for the day. She determines how many spell points to devote to which spells and later in the day, she can spend the spell points and unleash them. But (hypoethetically) part of playing the wizard as a scholar and an academic is the idea that they are the most effective when they can prepare for the trouble they're going to get into, when they have knowledge before they act, so keeping the memorization mechanic helps wizards to remain a character class that benefits from studying the situation in advance and determining which spells to best apply. And then I have a spell-point sorcerer and he only gets one spell list, so he spends his spell points on whatever he wants whenever he wants to, and he probably has MORE than the wizard, since part of what a sorcerer has is frequent, innate magic. Spontaneity and creative spell use become more key for such a character. And the mechanics here can inform fiction. If, in the same game, I also have a slot wizard and a slot sorcerer, the two Colleges of Magic can huff at each other, Slots accusing points of being mathematical and too in the numbers and points accusing slots of being too regimented and not accessing the pool of magical power in general. Or you can use one magic system for the "whole world," (like 3e's slots) and still retain a distinction between the classes. I wouldn't be so sure about that. People are [I]very[/I] imprecise when they throw around the term "Vancian." It might mean memorization, it might mean slots, it might mean Daily abilities, it might mean spells-as-inventions...it might mean ALL of those things, or any one of those things, or potentially even none of those things. Those things aren't necessarily a package. You can have one without another. In my mind, memorization (and thus preparation) is a key part of playing a wizard, but in my mind it's ALSO a key part of playing a wizard that they can "run out of magic" at some point (ie: is Daily-based), and clearly the designers don't agree with THAT. ;) So I'm certainly not saying my idea is The Way It Is. It's a possible option. It's also a possible option that, like others have said, they ditch the idea of unique magical classes entirely and bring back "Magic User" and let individuals decide between Scholarly Magic and Pact Magic and Heritage Magic and maybe even Divine Magic and do things that way. It's also possible that none of those happen. That's part of the thing with this update. It's got a lot of potential as an idea, but it's VERY vague as to what it exactly means. [/QUOTE]
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