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New Survey Results | Druid & Paladin | Unearthed Arcana | D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9025436" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>OK. Let's just fix part of this - and not add in the playtest stuff because it confuses things.</p><p></p><p>In 5e the average starting stat is either 16 or 17 using the standard array. At level 5 unless vuman they only have only one feat/ASI and to be "full build" they need three; two to reach Dex 20 and a third for the Sharpshooter feat. (In the playtest of course, you need three +Dex feats to reach Dex 20, so the gap is arguably wider from levels 8-11).</p><p></p><p>But using "classic" 4e and assuming that no magic weapons and that both sides grabbed Sharpshooter at level 4 (because that's both a solid choice and entirely defensible for CharOp) then at level 5 the baseline damage isn't 2d8+10 damage, but 2d8+6, moving up to 2d8+8 with +1 to hit for the fighter at level 6 and the ranger at level 8 - while at level 8 the fighter hits 2d8+10 damage with a further +1 to hit.</p><p></p><p>And from the rate of exchange for Sharpshooter +1 to hit is worth +2 damage. On each attack. If we can use that rate of exchange the ranger's "consistent" damage is effectively 2d8+8 + d6 + d8 while the fighter's consistent damage is 2d8+14. Which is ... not that far away especially as the fighter should have extra damage available from their subclass.</p><p></p><p>2d8+10 per turn with +1 to hit (or 2d8+14 damage) vs 3d8 + 8 per turn. Again it's close. And I agree the ranger needs a good level 11 ability.</p><p></p><p>They really aren't, especially after level 5 (TWF is strong before you get the extra attack but doesn't scale). They have three fundamental flaws compared to fighters, paladins, and barbarians:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Concentration - which matters far more when you are on the front lines trying to soak up the damage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">They are squishy. The Barbarian has their half damage thing, the fighter has heavy armour and a bonus action self heal, and the paladin has heavy armour and a <em>big</em> lay on hands. So they can't either tank or be up in the big bad's face unless they have someone with Sentinel (or Ancestral Spirits or some other tank ability) drawing aggro. And as a two weapon fighter, of course, you have no shield and have taken the defensive fighting style so you have a poor AC.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hunter's Mark and your off-hand attack both want your bonus action. If you are Hunters' Marking something you can not also make your extra attack that turn. (This is clearly intended behaviour which is why they've reverted the TWF change and added the Nick property)</li> </ul><p>"The Blender" unless they found magic armour will have had an AC of 16 (Studded Leather with +4 AC) at level 7, and they lack spells like Shield or False Life to make them tougher. And they won't have been able to do that 6d6+1d8+12 damage on the first round of combat because they needed the bonus action to set the Hunter's Mark so it was 4d6+ 1d8 + 8. Which is not insignificant but far from OP (for comparison a barbarian with a maul and +2 Str rather than GWM does 4d6+12 damage). If they are dealing with chaff then the targets are going to die before they get to spin up so it's 3d6 + 1d8 + 12 damage (again barbarian with a maul damage).</p><p></p><p>The only time you actually get to do the 6d6+1d8 + 12 damage is your <em>second</em> round against a big target. But this gives a BBEG an entire round to pound on you with your AC 16 and lack of spells like Shield or other defensive tech like Rage. </p><p></p><p>Oh, and your spike damage is 6d6+1d8 + 12 = 37.5. That isn't that exceptional. Compare to a raging reckless attacking barbarian using GWM: 4d6 + 6 (Str) + 4 (Rage) + 20 (2 power attacks) with the possibility of a third attack if you kill something.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 9025436, member: 87792"] OK. Let's just fix part of this - and not add in the playtest stuff because it confuses things. In 5e the average starting stat is either 16 or 17 using the standard array. At level 5 unless vuman they only have only one feat/ASI and to be "full build" they need three; two to reach Dex 20 and a third for the Sharpshooter feat. (In the playtest of course, you need three +Dex feats to reach Dex 20, so the gap is arguably wider from levels 8-11). But using "classic" 4e and assuming that no magic weapons and that both sides grabbed Sharpshooter at level 4 (because that's both a solid choice and entirely defensible for CharOp) then at level 5 the baseline damage isn't 2d8+10 damage, but 2d8+6, moving up to 2d8+8 with +1 to hit for the fighter at level 6 and the ranger at level 8 - while at level 8 the fighter hits 2d8+10 damage with a further +1 to hit. And from the rate of exchange for Sharpshooter +1 to hit is worth +2 damage. On each attack. If we can use that rate of exchange the ranger's "consistent" damage is effectively 2d8+8 + d6 + d8 while the fighter's consistent damage is 2d8+14. Which is ... not that far away especially as the fighter should have extra damage available from their subclass. 2d8+10 per turn with +1 to hit (or 2d8+14 damage) vs 3d8 + 8 per turn. Again it's close. And I agree the ranger needs a good level 11 ability. They really aren't, especially after level 5 (TWF is strong before you get the extra attack but doesn't scale). They have three fundamental flaws compared to fighters, paladins, and barbarians: [LIST] [*]Concentration - which matters far more when you are on the front lines trying to soak up the damage [*]They are squishy. The Barbarian has their half damage thing, the fighter has heavy armour and a bonus action self heal, and the paladin has heavy armour and a [I]big[/I] lay on hands. So they can't either tank or be up in the big bad's face unless they have someone with Sentinel (or Ancestral Spirits or some other tank ability) drawing aggro. And as a two weapon fighter, of course, you have no shield and have taken the defensive fighting style so you have a poor AC. [*]Hunter's Mark and your off-hand attack both want your bonus action. If you are Hunters' Marking something you can not also make your extra attack that turn. (This is clearly intended behaviour which is why they've reverted the TWF change and added the Nick property) [/LIST] "The Blender" unless they found magic armour will have had an AC of 16 (Studded Leather with +4 AC) at level 7, and they lack spells like Shield or False Life to make them tougher. And they won't have been able to do that 6d6+1d8+12 damage on the first round of combat because they needed the bonus action to set the Hunter's Mark so it was 4d6+ 1d8 + 8. Which is not insignificant but far from OP (for comparison a barbarian with a maul and +2 Str rather than GWM does 4d6+12 damage). If they are dealing with chaff then the targets are going to die before they get to spin up so it's 3d6 + 1d8 + 12 damage (again barbarian with a maul damage). The only time you actually get to do the 6d6+1d8 + 12 damage is your [I]second[/I] round against a big target. But this gives a BBEG an entire round to pound on you with your AC 16 and lack of spells like Shield or other defensive tech like Rage. Oh, and your spike damage is 6d6+1d8 + 12 = 37.5. That isn't that exceptional. Compare to a raging reckless attacking barbarian using GWM: 4d6 + 6 (Str) + 4 (Rage) + 20 (2 power attacks) with the possibility of a third attack if you kill something. [/QUOTE]
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