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<blockquote data-quote="Alzrius" data-source="post: 7726875" data-attributes="member: 8461"><p>So I stumbled across this story - the one about Frank Mentzer and Jessica Price - this morning, and I've spent the last few hours finding all of the information that I could. From what I can tell, there are three issues in play, here:</p><p></p><p><strong>1. Frank's flirting</strong> - In her <a href="http://archive.is/VNBt5" target="_blank">initial Twitter feed</a> about what happened, Jessica posts a screencap where Frank appears to be (trying to) flirt with her. From what I can tell, they'd had some sort of professional contact before (I'm guessing PaizoCon), but otherwise the messaging looks like it's totally out of the blue. While it might be awkward, I don't think that this is necessarily crossing any sort of moral line, and I'm skeptical that it's worse than a <em>faux paus</em>, in terms of breaches of social etiquette.</p><p></p><p><strong>2. Frank's opinion about the woman on the bus</strong> - According to Jessica's initial Twitter feed, Frank then (at some later date) joined a discussion regarding a Seattle woman who had been groped on a bus. She says that Frank, when he heard that the woman in question froze up during the incident, asked why she didn't attack the man groping her. From there, according to her, Frank expressed the opinion that freezing up during that sort of situation is "not normal," that if people don't fight back in such situations "the problem was with them," and that they're "sick" and need professional help. There are no screenshots of this conversation, though apparently <a href="https://image.ibb.co/kLzMmR/Gpluspost1.jpg" target="_blank">multiple people</a> (second part of that post <a href="https://image.ibb.co/fAZXt6/Gpluspost2.jpg" target="_blank">here</a>) were involved in the discourse. Frank later <a href="https://archive.fo/XAr5w/27dc1ddce33e72b72433315b01a9247633c4a4a5.jpg" target="_blank">summarized his stance</a> on the issue.</p><p></p><p>This is much more damning than some flirting, as I don't believe that freezing up when unexpectedly thrust into a high-tension situation is in any way abnormal. That said, there are differences between what Frank seems to be saying in that last screenshot, and what Jessica and the unknown person in those other screenshots are saying - albeit subtle ones - and that's enough to give me some pause. Looking at Frank's summarization in a vacuum, he's suggesting that he was "bothered" that the woman in question felt too powerless to even call for help. That could be read as disapproval of her actions (which is wrongheaded at the very least) or as him finding it tragic that she was made to feel that way to begin with (which is a much more benign sentiment). </p><p></p><p>As for his idea that the woman in question should seek professional help...again, that seems (to me) to depend on context that isn't available. I'm of the opinion that counseling and mental health services should absolutely be made available to victims of sexual assault/violence, as they can be immeasurably helpful with dealing with trauma, so that it doesn't continue to adversely affect the victim's quality of life. If that was what he meant, then I completely agree; there should not be a stigma attached to seeking medical services after an attack. On the other hand, if he meant that her freezing up when in a crisis situation is something that requires mental health treatment (as Jessica and that other person are alleging), then I disagree strongly.</p><p></p><p>That Frank then goes on to talk about fighting back against an attacker <em>could</em> be read as the latter interpretation of his former remarks...but again, I'm not certain of that. That's because I don't believe that prescribing actions that <em>should</em> be taken when in a dangerous situation necessarily indicates that those who <em>don't</em> undertake such actions when in such a situation are therefore to blame for what happened to them. Telling someone not to walk down a dark alley at night does NOT mean that you're preemptively blaming them if they do walk down a dark alley at night and get attacked. That, however, isn't what Jessica and that other poster allege Frank expressed in that Facebook conversation. As such, without seeing what Frank specifically said with regards to the Seattle woman on the bus, I'm not able to reach a firm conclusion.</p><p></p><p><strong>3. Frank's making a threat</strong> - Jessica, in her initial Twitter feed, says that Frank talked about how he was "going to make sure [she] never worked in the [tabletop game] industry again." However, her screenshot here is of herself, saying that Frank had made "thinly-veiled professional threats." The unnamed poster who claimed knowledge of the conversation(s) said that Frank made a statement about "you shouldn't burn your bridges." <a href="https://archive.fo/Jf9w4/3e9c2d34d04931445852591122f2f1cb3a83c0b8.jpg" target="_blank">Frank himself</a> characterizes it as "if you" (presumably Jessica) "slam and lock a door, be sure you're never going to need it again." </p><p></p><p>Personally, I find this one even harder to parse than the issue regarding the woman on the bus. That's because statements like "you shouldn't burn your bridges" could be taken as either implied threats (i.e. a Mafia-like, "you <em>sure</em> you wanna do that?"), or at harmless statements of (somewhat paternalistic) advice (since Frank lived through the upheavals that TSR and other parts of the industry went through, where a lot of bad blood was generated when bridges were burned). Again, we need context that we don't have. I have to say though, I'm rather troubled by how Jessica characterized Frank as saying he'd make sure she'd never work in the industry again, only to screencap herself saying that he was making veiled threats. Those are not the same thing, and altering her description like that makes me disinclined to believe her take on the situation.</p><p></p><p><strong>In Addition</strong></p><p></p><p>While reading Jessica's take on the situation, I came across a <a href="http://archive.fo/gWBmd" target="_blank">follow-up Twitter feed</a> from her where she talks about why she's posting this now. However, during the course of that she says the following:</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH]90031[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>This is the part that I found harder to believe. In my experience, Paizo has always been at the forefront of progressivism in the gaming community. The idea that they warned her about there being only so much of that they'd tolerate is very difficult to reconcile with that. I just can't see James Jacobs, Erik Mona, Lisa Stevens, Crystal Frasier et al taking that attitude. The only way that makes sense to me would be if Jessica was bringing issues like this up to such a point that they were becoming disruptive. But that would be indicative of her taking an extremely strident attitude towards these issues, to the point where it would make it difficult to work with her otherwise. But things like this don't help her avoid that characterization:</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH]90033[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, Frank Mentzer has recently had bouts of <a href="http://www.tenkarstavern.com/search/label/frank%20mentzer" target="_blank">terrible judgment</a> as well, which seems to be a large part of the reason why <a href="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/extsr/frank-mentzers-empyrea-fantasy-setting-for-10-rpg/posts/2019203" target="_blank">Empyrea was cancelled</a>.</p><p></p><p>Overall, it's hard to know whose characterization(s) to believe, and I'm finding the entire mess rather sordid. I suppose if I <em>had</em> to say whose "side" I'd come down on, it would be...</p><p></p><p>...my not going there.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Alzrius, post: 7726875, member: 8461"] So I stumbled across this story - the one about Frank Mentzer and Jessica Price - this morning, and I've spent the last few hours finding all of the information that I could. From what I can tell, there are three issues in play, here: [b]1. Frank's flirting[/b] - In her [url=http://archive.is/VNBt5]initial Twitter feed[/url] about what happened, Jessica posts a screencap where Frank appears to be (trying to) flirt with her. From what I can tell, they'd had some sort of professional contact before (I'm guessing PaizoCon), but otherwise the messaging looks like it's totally out of the blue. While it might be awkward, I don't think that this is necessarily crossing any sort of moral line, and I'm skeptical that it's worse than a [I]faux paus[/I], in terms of breaches of social etiquette. [b]2. Frank's opinion about the woman on the bus[/b] - According to Jessica's initial Twitter feed, Frank then (at some later date) joined a discussion regarding a Seattle woman who had been groped on a bus. She says that Frank, when he heard that the woman in question froze up during the incident, asked why she didn't attack the man groping her. From there, according to her, Frank expressed the opinion that freezing up during that sort of situation is "not normal," that if people don't fight back in such situations "the problem was with them," and that they're "sick" and need professional help. There are no screenshots of this conversation, though apparently [url=https://image.ibb.co/kLzMmR/Gpluspost1.jpg]multiple people[/url] (second part of that post [url=https://image.ibb.co/fAZXt6/Gpluspost2.jpg]here[/url]) were involved in the discourse. Frank later [url=https://archive.fo/XAr5w/27dc1ddce33e72b72433315b01a9247633c4a4a5.jpg]summarized his stance[/url] on the issue. This is much more damning than some flirting, as I don't believe that freezing up when unexpectedly thrust into a high-tension situation is in any way abnormal. That said, there are differences between what Frank seems to be saying in that last screenshot, and what Jessica and the unknown person in those other screenshots are saying - albeit subtle ones - and that's enough to give me some pause. Looking at Frank's summarization in a vacuum, he's suggesting that he was "bothered" that the woman in question felt too powerless to even call for help. That could be read as disapproval of her actions (which is wrongheaded at the very least) or as him finding it tragic that she was made to feel that way to begin with (which is a much more benign sentiment). As for his idea that the woman in question should seek professional help...again, that seems (to me) to depend on context that isn't available. I'm of the opinion that counseling and mental health services should absolutely be made available to victims of sexual assault/violence, as they can be immeasurably helpful with dealing with trauma, so that it doesn't continue to adversely affect the victim's quality of life. If that was what he meant, then I completely agree; there should not be a stigma attached to seeking medical services after an attack. On the other hand, if he meant that her freezing up when in a crisis situation is something that requires mental health treatment (as Jessica and that other person are alleging), then I disagree strongly. That Frank then goes on to talk about fighting back against an attacker [I]could[/I] be read as the latter interpretation of his former remarks...but again, I'm not certain of that. That's because I don't believe that prescribing actions that [I]should[/I] be taken when in a dangerous situation necessarily indicates that those who [I]don't[/I] undertake such actions when in such a situation are therefore to blame for what happened to them. Telling someone not to walk down a dark alley at night does NOT mean that you're preemptively blaming them if they do walk down a dark alley at night and get attacked. That, however, isn't what Jessica and that other poster allege Frank expressed in that Facebook conversation. As such, without seeing what Frank specifically said with regards to the Seattle woman on the bus, I'm not able to reach a firm conclusion. [b]3. Frank's making a threat[/b] - Jessica, in her initial Twitter feed, says that Frank talked about how he was "going to make sure [she] never worked in the [tabletop game] industry again." However, her screenshot here is of herself, saying that Frank had made "thinly-veiled professional threats." The unnamed poster who claimed knowledge of the conversation(s) said that Frank made a statement about "you shouldn't burn your bridges." [url=https://archive.fo/Jf9w4/3e9c2d34d04931445852591122f2f1cb3a83c0b8.jpg]Frank himself[/url] characterizes it as "if you" (presumably Jessica) "slam and lock a door, be sure you're never going to need it again." Personally, I find this one even harder to parse than the issue regarding the woman on the bus. That's because statements like "you shouldn't burn your bridges" could be taken as either implied threats (i.e. a Mafia-like, "you [I]sure[/I] you wanna do that?"), or at harmless statements of (somewhat paternalistic) advice (since Frank lived through the upheavals that TSR and other parts of the industry went through, where a lot of bad blood was generated when bridges were burned). Again, we need context that we don't have. I have to say though, I'm rather troubled by how Jessica characterized Frank as saying he'd make sure she'd never work in the industry again, only to screencap herself saying that he was making veiled threats. Those are not the same thing, and altering her description like that makes me disinclined to believe her take on the situation. [b]In Addition[/b] While reading Jessica's take on the situation, I came across a [url=http://archive.fo/gWBmd]follow-up Twitter feed[/url] from her where she talks about why she's posting this now. However, during the course of that she says the following: [ATTACH=CONFIG]90031[/ATTACH] This is the part that I found harder to believe. In my experience, Paizo has always been at the forefront of progressivism in the gaming community. The idea that they warned her about there being only so much of that they'd tolerate is very difficult to reconcile with that. I just can't see James Jacobs, Erik Mona, Lisa Stevens, Crystal Frasier et al taking that attitude. The only way that makes sense to me would be if Jessica was bringing issues like this up to such a point that they were becoming disruptive. But that would be indicative of her taking an extremely strident attitude towards these issues, to the point where it would make it difficult to work with her otherwise. But things like this don't help her avoid that characterization: [ATTACH=CONFIG]90033[/ATTACH] On the other hand, Frank Mentzer has recently had bouts of [url=http://www.tenkarstavern.com/search/label/frank%20mentzer]terrible judgment[/url] as well, which seems to be a large part of the reason why [url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/extsr/frank-mentzers-empyrea-fantasy-setting-for-10-rpg/posts/2019203]Empyrea was cancelled[/url]. Overall, it's hard to know whose characterization(s) to believe, and I'm finding the entire mess rather sordid. I suppose if I [I]had[/I] to say whose "side" I'd come down on, it would be... ...my not going there. [/QUOTE]
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