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Character Builds & Optimization
No Prebuff - Round 1 - Damage Rankings
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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 7993817" data-attributes="member: 6795602"><p>Then please act like it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No such arena will provide an accurate enough picture to be useful as all arenas leave out too many players typical situations. And then we come right back to the damage now vs damage later issue.</p><p></p><p>As an extreme example: consider a character doing 100 dmg in round 1 and 0 dmg each subsequent round till round 4. Now consider a character doing 100 damage on round 4 but 0 damage on each round preceding that. Both characters have done 100 damage over 4 rounds. Yet 1 is clearly superior. But what if the 100 damage on round 4 was replaced by 120 damage. Which is the better option? What if it was replaced by 200? Which is the better option.</p><p></p><p>In short looking at total damage dealt over X rounds is a naïve way of looking at things because it doesn't just matter the total, but also the distribution over those rounds - and the simple fact is - at this juncture we have no direct way of comparing damage on this round to damage on a subsequent round.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And that proposal just isn't going to be accurate. I think the biggest problem is that you've missed most of the optimization discussion over the years. So maybe a recap.</p><p></p><p>We started out looking heavily at at-will damage.</p><p>Then we started extended that out to near at-will damage.</p><p>Then we modified that a bit and started trying to define a standard adventuring day and make evaluations based on that.</p><p>The problem we find is that adventuring days, and ratios of short rests to long rests to combat encounters to length of combat encounters all greatly varies from DM to DM and campaign to campaign.</p><p></p><p>So if you really want something similar to what you are suggesting you are probably 1-2 years late. Those analysises while moving us forward still failed to give a full picture and that's because of the varied ways in which 5e is played. So instead of trying to make something so complex to account for everything - which usually ends up being worthless as it doesn't actually correspond to anyones actual game - instead I'm looking at something a bit simpler that can apply to all games.</p><p></p><p>Nova damage in 5e is one of those things that really hasn't been explored much till now.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not just tedium. It goes back to the damage now vs damage later issue. We have no mechanism to compare damages between different rounds. Which is why in this thread I'm looking at the Nova aspects. Because they can all be done on the first round by any character. Because the at-will, semi at-will, daily damage stuff has already been explored and still didn't take us where we needed to be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's hard to fault a build for something that extends to all builds of a given class.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And yet, after you've used that ability you are still a cleric which is one of the more versatile classes in the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And after that he's still a paladin with spell slots he can use, with lay on hands, with a channel divinity, etc. Not really a 1 trick pony, right?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And there you have it. Wizard's aren't 1 trick ponies.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So far you've not listed any build here that is actually anywhere near being a 1 trick pony. The closest was the fighter - but sting is taken away because all fighters are essentially the same in that respect.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well that and damage gets split up a lot more than it did in 4e - meaning even a KPR of 2 doesn't mean you are wasting a bunch since it typically means you will kill 2 enemies instead of 1 in 5e, which didn't happen so much in 4e.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I expect as higher level builds are explored we will see more as there's just more workable combinations.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Good points</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Typically stating why just leads people to argue about the why.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have faith that if someone calculates something wrong someone here will check it at some point and it will get corrected and them educated.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 7993817, member: 6795602"] Then please act like it. No such arena will provide an accurate enough picture to be useful as all arenas leave out too many players typical situations. And then we come right back to the damage now vs damage later issue. As an extreme example: consider a character doing 100 dmg in round 1 and 0 dmg each subsequent round till round 4. Now consider a character doing 100 damage on round 4 but 0 damage on each round preceding that. Both characters have done 100 damage over 4 rounds. Yet 1 is clearly superior. But what if the 100 damage on round 4 was replaced by 120 damage. Which is the better option? What if it was replaced by 200? Which is the better option. In short looking at total damage dealt over X rounds is a naïve way of looking at things because it doesn't just matter the total, but also the distribution over those rounds - and the simple fact is - at this juncture we have no direct way of comparing damage on this round to damage on a subsequent round. And that proposal just isn't going to be accurate. I think the biggest problem is that you've missed most of the optimization discussion over the years. So maybe a recap. We started out looking heavily at at-will damage. Then we started extended that out to near at-will damage. Then we modified that a bit and started trying to define a standard adventuring day and make evaluations based on that. The problem we find is that adventuring days, and ratios of short rests to long rests to combat encounters to length of combat encounters all greatly varies from DM to DM and campaign to campaign. So if you really want something similar to what you are suggesting you are probably 1-2 years late. Those analysises while moving us forward still failed to give a full picture and that's because of the varied ways in which 5e is played. So instead of trying to make something so complex to account for everything - which usually ends up being worthless as it doesn't actually correspond to anyones actual game - instead I'm looking at something a bit simpler that can apply to all games. Nova damage in 5e is one of those things that really hasn't been explored much till now. Not just tedium. It goes back to the damage now vs damage later issue. We have no mechanism to compare damages between different rounds. Which is why in this thread I'm looking at the Nova aspects. Because they can all be done on the first round by any character. Because the at-will, semi at-will, daily damage stuff has already been explored and still didn't take us where we needed to be. It's hard to fault a build for something that extends to all builds of a given class. And yet, after you've used that ability you are still a cleric which is one of the more versatile classes in the game. And after that he's still a paladin with spell slots he can use, with lay on hands, with a channel divinity, etc. Not really a 1 trick pony, right? And there you have it. Wizard's aren't 1 trick ponies. So far you've not listed any build here that is actually anywhere near being a 1 trick pony. The closest was the fighter - but sting is taken away because all fighters are essentially the same in that respect. Well that and damage gets split up a lot more than it did in 4e - meaning even a KPR of 2 doesn't mean you are wasting a bunch since it typically means you will kill 2 enemies instead of 1 in 5e, which didn't happen so much in 4e. I expect as higher level builds are explored we will see more as there's just more workable combinations. Good points Typically stating why just leads people to argue about the why. I have faith that if someone calculates something wrong someone here will check it at some point and it will get corrected and them educated. [/QUOTE]
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