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<blockquote data-quote="Yaarel" data-source="post: 7489730" data-attributes="member: 58172"><p>There is such thing as a material culture that can be characterized as ‘Proto-Germanic’, namely the Iron Age Jastorf culture. But it is a relatively small ethnic group, surrounded by other ethnic groups.</p><p></p><p>Jastorf is assumed to be speaking a Proto-Germanic language − but even this is necessarily a speculation. German linguists often characterize everything before the 700s as ‘prehistoric’ because of the painful lack of written records in the necessary archeological contexts. Linguistic assumptions must extrapolate from indirect evidence.</p><p></p><p>Below is a rough map of northern Europe during the Iron Age, in the first century BCE, around ‘year zero’ sotospeak. This is the map that Tacitius and other Roman and Greek writers are dimly aware of.</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH]101069[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Everything to the east of the Rhine River and to the north of Danube River, is what the Romans call ‘Germania’. Germania is mostly Celtic, but also Nordwest, Slavic, and what we might call ‘Germanic’.</p><p></p><p>Note, when Tacitus uses the term ‘Germania’, he mainly has the Nordwest tribes in mind. The language that the Nordwest are speaking is thought to be neither Germanic nor Celtic.</p><p></p><p>Of concern here, there are five separate cultures. In the north, in blue, is the Nordic material culture corresponding to Nordic ethnicity and language with continuous integrity since the Stone Age. In the south in orange is La Tène material culture corresponding to Celtic ethnicity and language. In the east in green, is Przeworsk material culture corresponding to Proto-Slavic material culture and language, especially relating to Poland. In the west in yellow, is Harpstedt material culture corresponding to the easternmost section of the Nordwest ethnicity, that is thought to extend westward along the coast, past the Rhine River into Belgium and perhaps beyond. Linguists have shown the Nordwest cultures are speaking a language that is neither Germanic nor Celtic, but what that language is remains unresolved. Archeologists suspect the Nordwest tribes to west of the Rhine River eventually adopt Celtic language, while those east of it eventually adopt Germanic language, but when this happens is highly uncertain. Some archeologists suspect the emergence of Harpstedt culture, specifically, on the border with Jastorf, represents a partial adoption of a Proto-Germanic language. Other archeologists suspect the tribes that Tacitus calls Germanic are in fact speaking a language that is Non-Germanic. The tribe called Germanii with its odd etymology might also be Nordwest speakers, despite being surrounded by Celtic speakers.</p><p></p><p>The languages of various tribes have always been a primary interest of archeologists. Because of lack of evidence, simplistic but erroneous theories prevailed. Today, archeologists are faced with difficult, sometimes surprising, evidence thus now debate what it implies.</p><p></p><p>Some things are clear enough. Jastorf culture has continuity with cultures before and after it, eventuating as the north east corner of today Germany. At least in some sense, it can be called ‘Proto-Germanic’. The northern border of Jastorf culture is influenced by the Nordic culture, while the southern border is influenced by the Celtic culture. Meanwhile Proto-Slavic and Nordwest influence it, east and west, respectively.</p><p></p><p>Notice this Proto-Germanic material culture extends into the southern part of the Danish Peninsula, which many centuries earlier was within the Nordic Bronze Age material culture. Likely, at least this Danish section of Jastorf culture has speakers who continue some form of the Bronze Age Nordic language, even if the southward areas of Jastorf culture are less linguistically certain.</p><p></p><p>Likewise note the Anglo-Saxon migrations into today England. The ‘Anglo-’, the Engels (Englar) mainly originate from this southern Danish Peninsula section of what was earlier Jastorf culture. </p><p></p><p>Yet, the Saxons (Saxar) derive partly from the earlier Harpstedt culture. So, at least by this time, in the 400s, this branch of the Nordwest group adopted a Germanic language via cultural diffusion with its neighbor. Probably all of the Nordwest ethnicity that is east of the Rhine are Germanic speakers by the 400s. The Frankish (Frakkar) will also emerge as Germanic speakers from around here.</p><p></p><p>During the Holy Roman Empire, Germany will centralize politically. Thereby, many of the diverse ethnicities within the German territory eventually adopt the German language.</p><p></p><p>Notice, that most of today Germany derives from Celtic populations.</p><p></p><p>The main point in this thread is, what people today call ‘Germanic’ or ‘German’ is in fact an amalgam of ethnically diverse populations. These groups on the Continent might − or might not − adopt a Germanic language that somehow transmits influence from the Nordic culture in the north. But what is happening on the continent is mostly irrelevant to the Nordic cultures. Because Nordic aborigines have been doing their own thing, in their own way, since the Stone Age.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Yaarel, post: 7489730, member: 58172"] There is such thing as a material culture that can be characterized as ‘Proto-Germanic’, namely the Iron Age Jastorf culture. But it is a relatively small ethnic group, surrounded by other ethnic groups. Jastorf is assumed to be speaking a Proto-Germanic language − but even this is necessarily a speculation. German linguists often characterize everything before the 700s as ‘prehistoric’ because of the painful lack of written records in the necessary archeological contexts. Linguistic assumptions must extrapolate from indirect evidence. Below is a rough map of northern Europe during the Iron Age, in the first century BCE, around ‘year zero’ sotospeak. This is the map that Tacitius and other Roman and Greek writers are dimly aware of. [ATTACH=CONFIG]101069._xfImport[/ATTACH] Everything to the east of the Rhine River and to the north of Danube River, is what the Romans call ‘Germania’. Germania is mostly Celtic, but also Nordwest, Slavic, and what we might call ‘Germanic’. Note, when Tacitus uses the term ‘Germania’, he mainly has the Nordwest tribes in mind. The language that the Nordwest are speaking is thought to be neither Germanic nor Celtic. Of concern here, there are five separate cultures. In the north, in blue, is the Nordic material culture corresponding to Nordic ethnicity and language with continuous integrity since the Stone Age. In the south in orange is La Tène material culture corresponding to Celtic ethnicity and language. In the east in green, is Przeworsk material culture corresponding to Proto-Slavic material culture and language, especially relating to Poland. In the west in yellow, is Harpstedt material culture corresponding to the easternmost section of the Nordwest ethnicity, that is thought to extend westward along the coast, past the Rhine River into Belgium and perhaps beyond. Linguists have shown the Nordwest cultures are speaking a language that is neither Germanic nor Celtic, but what that language is remains unresolved. Archeologists suspect the Nordwest tribes to west of the Rhine River eventually adopt Celtic language, while those east of it eventually adopt Germanic language, but when this happens is highly uncertain. Some archeologists suspect the emergence of Harpstedt culture, specifically, on the border with Jastorf, represents a partial adoption of a Proto-Germanic language. Other archeologists suspect the tribes that Tacitus calls Germanic are in fact speaking a language that is Non-Germanic. The tribe called Germanii with its odd etymology might also be Nordwest speakers, despite being surrounded by Celtic speakers. The languages of various tribes have always been a primary interest of archeologists. Because of lack of evidence, simplistic but erroneous theories prevailed. Today, archeologists are faced with difficult, sometimes surprising, evidence thus now debate what it implies. Some things are clear enough. Jastorf culture has continuity with cultures before and after it, eventuating as the north east corner of today Germany. At least in some sense, it can be called ‘Proto-Germanic’. The northern border of Jastorf culture is influenced by the Nordic culture, while the southern border is influenced by the Celtic culture. Meanwhile Proto-Slavic and Nordwest influence it, east and west, respectively. Notice this Proto-Germanic material culture extends into the southern part of the Danish Peninsula, which many centuries earlier was within the Nordic Bronze Age material culture. Likely, at least this Danish section of Jastorf culture has speakers who continue some form of the Bronze Age Nordic language, even if the southward areas of Jastorf culture are less linguistically certain. Likewise note the Anglo-Saxon migrations into today England. The ‘Anglo-’, the Engels (Englar) mainly originate from this southern Danish Peninsula section of what was earlier Jastorf culture. Yet, the Saxons (Saxar) derive partly from the earlier Harpstedt culture. So, at least by this time, in the 400s, this branch of the Nordwest group adopted a Germanic language via cultural diffusion with its neighbor. Probably all of the Nordwest ethnicity that is east of the Rhine are Germanic speakers by the 400s. The Frankish (Frakkar) will also emerge as Germanic speakers from around here. During the Holy Roman Empire, Germany will centralize politically. Thereby, many of the diverse ethnicities within the German territory eventually adopt the German language. Notice, that most of today Germany derives from Celtic populations. The main point in this thread is, what people today call ‘Germanic’ or ‘German’ is in fact an amalgam of ethnically diverse populations. These groups on the Continent might − or might not − adopt a Germanic language that somehow transmits influence from the Nordic culture in the north. But what is happening on the continent is mostly irrelevant to the Nordic cultures. Because Nordic aborigines have been doing their own thing, in their own way, since the Stone Age. [/QUOTE]
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