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Not exactly Cyberpunk 2020
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<blockquote data-quote="Wolf1066" data-source="post: 5173964" data-attributes="member: 88680"><p><strong>"</strong></p><p></p><p>Shotguns.</p><p></p><p>Not handled at all well in either FNFF2013 or FNFF2020. Honestly, didn't they have one person on their staff that could actually <strong> use </strong>a firearm? As to their research: seems they spent more time watching action movies than checking out the actual shooting clubs.</p><p></p><p>And unfortunately (for many different reasons, most of which have nothing to do with Cyberpunk RPGs) shotguns are popular with criminals. Also popular with home defence proponents and the military and hunters etc etc etc but I'm thinking more from the viewpoint of those encountering the unlawful use.</p><p></p><p>What this means is that sooner or later, the player characters are likely to either find themselves on the wrong side of a shotgun or desire to use one themselves - which means I need something to replace the ludicrous Cyberpunk rules. </p><p></p><p>So I've spent the last few days looking at photos of different spread patterns (some of which were pretty gory due to the fact they weren't fired into paper targets, if you get my drift...) and reading up on actual police data.</p><p></p><p>In the interests of simplicity, I'm ignoring all shotgun gauges but 12ga, all barrels except open cylinder and all loads except 00 buck and solid slug - it's enough of a logistical nightmare as it is. No Magnum loads, either.</p><p></p><p>Despite what FNFF 2020 would have you believe, the spread on a standard shotgun (like the ones they list in the equipment) is not 3 metres wide at 50 metres. Nor is it a metre wide at point blank or "close" (12.5m) range.</p><p></p><p>In fact, out to around 3 metres - 10 feet - it's a solid clump of shot with the wad in tow, likely to blow a ragged hole around 3 inches wide and 8-12 inches deep in a human target, into which the wad will also go.</p><p></p><p>Beyond that point, the clump starts separating out and the wad separates off to make its own impact on the target.</p><p></p><p>The spread rate for 00 buck from an 18-22" barrel is around 1 inch per yard, depending on various factors. This would give us a diameter of about 139cm at 50m (54.7 yards) - nowhere near the 300cm quoted in FNFF2020.</p><p></p><p>I've created a spreadsheet with approximate, simplified figures - 1m approximating a yard, 2.5cm approximating an inch - to give me the spread from the barrel (assuming an inch at 1m from the barrel and adding another inch every metre thereafter) all the way out to 50m (125cm in my approximation)</p><p></p><p>I've then, in keeping with there being a difference between shooting at a stationary human silhouette on the range and shooting at an evading target when you're also trying to avoid being shot, I've come up with die rolls for the number of pellets that hit your target as the circle increases.</p><p></p><p>There are 9 pellets in a standard 00 shot shell so my figures are based around that number. Up to 3 metres, we get a solid clump, beyond that nine separate pellets until the circle starts getting big enough for it to be possible that some pellets miss (assuming a torso shot). Out to somewhere around 20m, there's still a change that all nine pellets will hit the body (though getting less likely), beyond that point, when the circle's getting larger than half a metre across, the upper limit starts dropping away. </p><p></p><p>In order to approximate the decrease in likely pellet strikes I've started off with 1D4+5 pellets going to 1D6+3 further out to 1D8+1 further still, dropping to 1D8 (when the growing circle makes it likely that at least one has to miss) then 1D6+1 and so on down to 1D4 as the pellets spread further away.</p><p></p><p>Once I've tweaked this to my satisfaction, I then have to start coming up with what damage is done by the close-range clumps and the individual pellets as they travel further from the muzzle.</p><p></p><p>My aim is that I will end up with a table that I can consult and say "you're shooting him at <em>n</em> metres, which means he gets hit by 1D6+1 pellets, each doing <em>x</em>D<em>y</em>+<em>z</em> damage.</p><p></p><p>It might require a bit of rolling dice to work out the damage, but what do you expect when doing the equivalent of hitting him with a nine-round burst from a machinegun.</p><p></p><p>Which brings us to how much damage these things do.</p><p></p><p>A shotgun is, quite frankly, devastating. Muzzle energy is typically ten times that of a .45ACP, and it has been described as "like a nine-round burst from a submachinegun".</p><p></p><p>Each pellet is roughly equivalent to a 9mm projectile - wrt diameter, anyway, they are about half the mass of a 9mm projectile. The big difference between the two, aside from mass, is that the pellet is not as aerodynamic and not as effective at penetrating flesh as the 9mm. This means power and penetrating ability of 00 buck pellets drop a lot faster than for a 9mm projectile.</p><p></p><p>I'm currently working on how much killing damage the 12ga can inflict - both for slug/clump and individual pellets - in keeping with the actual figures as provided by weapon specialists, police etc.</p><p></p><p>The actual tested "one shot stop" figure for a 12ga loaded with 00 is 98%. Which means 98% of people shot in the torso with one shot from a 12ga loaded with 00 buckshot gave up the fight instantly - whether dead, stunned or just plain unwilling to risk being shot like that again.</p><p></p><p>This tells me that 2% of attackers shot in the chest with a shotgun were capable enough of continuing the fight to require a second shot.</p><p></p><p>So 2% survival so far plus a few more % for those who survived and were conscious and decided to give up and a few more % for those who were merely rendered incapable of acting but were still alive. Need to balance the damage so that it is survivable say around 5-10% of the time...</p><p></p><p>But even with really conservative figures, a blast in the torso from a shotgun at 10 feet is going to be irrevocably fatal under Cyberpunk's damage rules. Ten times a .45ACP? Even 9 times a 9mm - and using the weak 2020 figures rather than Luciferin or Rogue's tables - gives us 9D6+18, the eighteen alone being sufficient to qualify most people for wings and a halo. Try Rogue's 2D6+5 for 9mm/.45ACP and you're looking at the point blank damage of a 12ga being 18D6+45 or 20D6+50.</p><p></p><p>Ludicrous? Not really. If a character took 9 separate 9mm shots to the torso, what sort of damage would you expect him to take? Should it be decreased just because the damage is all delivered at once?</p><p></p><p>Nine-round burst from an SMG, ten times the muzzle energy of a .45ACP - not a trifling weapon, no matter what way you look at it.</p><p></p><p>How many critical/serious wounds would that be? You only need two serious for a mortal, three for dead.</p><p></p><p>Under CP2020, that'd fill up wound boxes at an alarming rate.</p><p></p><p>There are times when I seriously consider ditching the damage rules entirely and running combat resolution off percentile dice:</p><p>"One shot stop" percentages to determine if the character is capable of continuing the fight, various other crime stats to determine whether (s)he's likely to still be alive if not able to fight, other stats to work out what was most likely damaged etc - then fudging it from there...</p><p></p><p>"Well, you had a 98% chance of a one stop shot, you got his torso, he's no longer fighting and he's, lessee, down but still breathing... guts is pretty churned up and he'll die in around 5 minutes unless he gets help."</p><p></p><p>Or "well, despite being shot in the chest with a 12ga at a range of three metres, this guy's still coming after you... better shoot him again."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Wolf1066, post: 5173964, member: 88680"] [b]"[/b] Shotguns. Not handled at all well in either FNFF2013 or FNFF2020. Honestly, didn't they have one person on their staff that could actually [B] use [/B]a firearm? As to their research: seems they spent more time watching action movies than checking out the actual shooting clubs. And unfortunately (for many different reasons, most of which have nothing to do with Cyberpunk RPGs) shotguns are popular with criminals. Also popular with home defence proponents and the military and hunters etc etc etc but I'm thinking more from the viewpoint of those encountering the unlawful use. What this means is that sooner or later, the player characters are likely to either find themselves on the wrong side of a shotgun or desire to use one themselves - which means I need something to replace the ludicrous Cyberpunk rules. So I've spent the last few days looking at photos of different spread patterns (some of which were pretty gory due to the fact they weren't fired into paper targets, if you get my drift...) and reading up on actual police data. In the interests of simplicity, I'm ignoring all shotgun gauges but 12ga, all barrels except open cylinder and all loads except 00 buck and solid slug - it's enough of a logistical nightmare as it is. No Magnum loads, either. Despite what FNFF 2020 would have you believe, the spread on a standard shotgun (like the ones they list in the equipment) is not 3 metres wide at 50 metres. Nor is it a metre wide at point blank or "close" (12.5m) range. In fact, out to around 3 metres - 10 feet - it's a solid clump of shot with the wad in tow, likely to blow a ragged hole around 3 inches wide and 8-12 inches deep in a human target, into which the wad will also go. Beyond that point, the clump starts separating out and the wad separates off to make its own impact on the target. The spread rate for 00 buck from an 18-22" barrel is around 1 inch per yard, depending on various factors. This would give us a diameter of about 139cm at 50m (54.7 yards) - nowhere near the 300cm quoted in FNFF2020. I've created a spreadsheet with approximate, simplified figures - 1m approximating a yard, 2.5cm approximating an inch - to give me the spread from the barrel (assuming an inch at 1m from the barrel and adding another inch every metre thereafter) all the way out to 50m (125cm in my approximation) I've then, in keeping with there being a difference between shooting at a stationary human silhouette on the range and shooting at an evading target when you're also trying to avoid being shot, I've come up with die rolls for the number of pellets that hit your target as the circle increases. There are 9 pellets in a standard 00 shot shell so my figures are based around that number. Up to 3 metres, we get a solid clump, beyond that nine separate pellets until the circle starts getting big enough for it to be possible that some pellets miss (assuming a torso shot). Out to somewhere around 20m, there's still a change that all nine pellets will hit the body (though getting less likely), beyond that point, when the circle's getting larger than half a metre across, the upper limit starts dropping away. In order to approximate the decrease in likely pellet strikes I've started off with 1D4+5 pellets going to 1D6+3 further out to 1D8+1 further still, dropping to 1D8 (when the growing circle makes it likely that at least one has to miss) then 1D6+1 and so on down to 1D4 as the pellets spread further away. Once I've tweaked this to my satisfaction, I then have to start coming up with what damage is done by the close-range clumps and the individual pellets as they travel further from the muzzle. My aim is that I will end up with a table that I can consult and say "you're shooting him at [I]n[/I] metres, which means he gets hit by 1D6+1 pellets, each doing [I]x[/I]D[I]y[/I]+[I]z[/I] damage. It might require a bit of rolling dice to work out the damage, but what do you expect when doing the equivalent of hitting him with a nine-round burst from a machinegun. Which brings us to how much damage these things do. A shotgun is, quite frankly, devastating. Muzzle energy is typically ten times that of a .45ACP, and it has been described as "like a nine-round burst from a submachinegun". Each pellet is roughly equivalent to a 9mm projectile - wrt diameter, anyway, they are about half the mass of a 9mm projectile. The big difference between the two, aside from mass, is that the pellet is not as aerodynamic and not as effective at penetrating flesh as the 9mm. This means power and penetrating ability of 00 buck pellets drop a lot faster than for a 9mm projectile. I'm currently working on how much killing damage the 12ga can inflict - both for slug/clump and individual pellets - in keeping with the actual figures as provided by weapon specialists, police etc. The actual tested "one shot stop" figure for a 12ga loaded with 00 is 98%. Which means 98% of people shot in the torso with one shot from a 12ga loaded with 00 buckshot gave up the fight instantly - whether dead, stunned or just plain unwilling to risk being shot like that again. This tells me that 2% of attackers shot in the chest with a shotgun were capable enough of continuing the fight to require a second shot. So 2% survival so far plus a few more % for those who survived and were conscious and decided to give up and a few more % for those who were merely rendered incapable of acting but were still alive. Need to balance the damage so that it is survivable say around 5-10% of the time... But even with really conservative figures, a blast in the torso from a shotgun at 10 feet is going to be irrevocably fatal under Cyberpunk's damage rules. Ten times a .45ACP? Even 9 times a 9mm - and using the weak 2020 figures rather than Luciferin or Rogue's tables - gives us 9D6+18, the eighteen alone being sufficient to qualify most people for wings and a halo. Try Rogue's 2D6+5 for 9mm/.45ACP and you're looking at the point blank damage of a 12ga being 18D6+45 or 20D6+50. Ludicrous? Not really. If a character took 9 separate 9mm shots to the torso, what sort of damage would you expect him to take? Should it be decreased just because the damage is all delivered at once? Nine-round burst from an SMG, ten times the muzzle energy of a .45ACP - not a trifling weapon, no matter what way you look at it. How many critical/serious wounds would that be? You only need two serious for a mortal, three for dead. Under CP2020, that'd fill up wound boxes at an alarming rate. There are times when I seriously consider ditching the damage rules entirely and running combat resolution off percentile dice: "One shot stop" percentages to determine if the character is capable of continuing the fight, various other crime stats to determine whether (s)he's likely to still be alive if not able to fight, other stats to work out what was most likely damaged etc - then fudging it from there... "Well, you had a 98% chance of a one stop shot, you got his torso, he's no longer fighting and he's, lessee, down but still breathing... guts is pretty churned up and he'll die in around 5 minutes unless he gets help." Or "well, despite being shot in the chest with a 12ga at a range of three metres, this guy's still coming after you... better shoot him again." [/QUOTE]
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