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October Playtest Packet - Magic Items, Updated XP, Monster Traits
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6029471" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>@<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/chris_nightwing.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: yellow">Chris_Nightwing</span></a></p><p> </p><p>Thanks for responding.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: white">The problem here is that Hide/Move Silently and Spot/Listen are no longer siloed. So they're basically an abstraction for all scenarios and, as such, it seems to presuppose that both are being tested simultaneously in all cases. Further, the rules go on to explicitely give prerequisite for the Hide:Spot portion of the contest - Concealment/Cover/Line-of-Sight. Therefore, it is not two separate Stealth rolls to Hide (vs Spot) and to Move Silently (vs Listen). It is one and it is abstracted as both.</span></p><p> </p><p>So if I read your interpretation corrrect then, Boots of Elvenkind provide no advantage to anyone (not a generic + bonus to Stealth nor advantage to Stealth rolls nor remove disadvantage from Stealth rolls nor remove advantage for Listen rolls against) on Stealth contests when the Spot portion of Perception and the Hide portion of Stealth are also being tested. It only provides a bonus on Stealth contests when <em>only</em> the Move Silently and Listen are pitted against one another and Line of Sight is irrelevant (a la a noble is sitting at his desk in another room and you are sneaking down the hallway)? Unfortunately, this would not be a very useful item then (and an extreme corner case that doesn't seem to make much sense for Foresty Elves to be creating) and, more importantly, how does this interface with the Stealth Rules as the Stealth Rules only talk about Line-of-Sight and then a subsequent Stealth vs Perception contest if that prerequisite is met? </p><p> </p><p>I guess the whole point is, if they're going to put both of the Stealth (Hide/Move Silently) and Perception (Spot/Listen) variables together and abstract the check...and then they're going to only provide explicit rules for Line-of-Sight (as prerequisite)...it strikes me as very incoherent rules design to then use the vague "silent footpadding" for Boots of Elvenkind...and its going to create problems at the table. </p><p> </p><p>- If they broke out Listen/Spot and Hide/Move Silently and thus gave you automatic success on all Move Silently rolls this would be a fantastic (overpowered) item. </p><p> </p><p>- If it removed Disadvantage on gave Advantage on Stealth checks or removed Advantage from the Listen contestant it would be a great item. </p><p> </p><p>As of right now...unfortunately...I'm not sure what it does and I'm not sure how the rules are supposed to mechanically support what it does. And I don't feel very good about what that says about 5e given how important Stealth rules are to D&D...coupled with their "Rulings not Rules" philosophy that seems to extoll the virtue of holes like this as a source of "DM empowerment".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6029471, member: 6696971"] @[URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/chris_nightwing.html"][COLOR=yellow]Chris_Nightwing[/COLOR][/URL] Thanks for responding. [COLOR=white]The problem here is that Hide/Move Silently and Spot/Listen are no longer siloed. So they're basically an abstraction for all scenarios and, as such, it seems to presuppose that both are being tested simultaneously in all cases. Further, the rules go on to explicitely give prerequisite for the Hide:Spot portion of the contest - Concealment/Cover/Line-of-Sight. Therefore, it is not two separate Stealth rolls to Hide (vs Spot) and to Move Silently (vs Listen). It is one and it is abstracted as both.[/COLOR] So if I read your interpretation corrrect then, Boots of Elvenkind provide no advantage to anyone (not a generic + bonus to Stealth nor advantage to Stealth rolls nor remove disadvantage from Stealth rolls nor remove advantage for Listen rolls against) on Stealth contests when the Spot portion of Perception and the Hide portion of Stealth are also being tested. It only provides a bonus on Stealth contests when [I]only[/I] the Move Silently and Listen are pitted against one another and Line of Sight is irrelevant (a la a noble is sitting at his desk in another room and you are sneaking down the hallway)? Unfortunately, this would not be a very useful item then (and an extreme corner case that doesn't seem to make much sense for Foresty Elves to be creating) and, more importantly, how does this interface with the Stealth Rules as the Stealth Rules only talk about Line-of-Sight and then a subsequent Stealth vs Perception contest if that prerequisite is met? I guess the whole point is, if they're going to put both of the Stealth (Hide/Move Silently) and Perception (Spot/Listen) variables together and abstract the check...and then they're going to only provide explicit rules for Line-of-Sight (as prerequisite)...it strikes me as very incoherent rules design to then use the vague "silent footpadding" for Boots of Elvenkind...and its going to create problems at the table. - If they broke out Listen/Spot and Hide/Move Silently and thus gave you automatic success on all Move Silently rolls this would be a fantastic (overpowered) item. - If it removed Disadvantage on gave Advantage on Stealth checks or removed Advantage from the Listen contestant it would be a great item. As of right now...unfortunately...I'm not sure what it does and I'm not sure how the rules are supposed to mechanically support what it does. And I don't feel very good about what that says about 5e given how important Stealth rules are to D&D...coupled with their "Rulings not Rules" philosophy that seems to extoll the virtue of holes like this as a source of "DM empowerment". [/QUOTE]
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