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Of all the complaints about 3.x systems... do you people actually allow this stuff ?
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<blockquote data-quote="delchrys" data-source="post: 5798547" data-attributes="member: 6688672"><p>Well said, Jon Dahl.</p><p></p><p>"Good" dnd campaigns require several elements:</p><p></p><p>1) skilled DM who knows when to adhere strictly to the rules and when to abandon them; how much to railroad and how much of a sandbox to build (extremes are terrible); who can weave the players' interests/desires/goals/motivations/backstory into the tapestry of the DM's campaign seamlessly, and who can build player trust</p><p></p><p>2) players who play to enjoy the challenge and story, who seek to be part of the story and help build the story with their individual goals and group goals in a synergy with the other players and the DM, and who don't care if the DM "breaks rules" from time-to-time (and who don't expect the DM to share when the rule-breaking occurs and when it's just luck or whatever)</p><p></p><p>3) a robust yet flexible ruleset</p><p></p><p>4) the illusion that any player character can go anywhere and try anything, with that illusion becoming reality through improv DMing and knowing when to end a session to enable development between sessions in accordance with key choices made by the players in the last session</p><p></p><p>5) a ruleset that does not eclipse the purpose of the game -- to enjoy the experience (which to me and my players is story and goal achievement at the table as a group, not to "kill as much stuff as possible and maximize damage-dealing efficiency via min/maxing and powergaming"). the ruleset should not be so expansive that players are constantly coming up with abilities and powers that, just by their intended usage are blowing through story elements and obstacles like a cannonball through tissue paper. granted, lots of options and powers (spells, special abilities, etc) are great for players and to a point, necessary, but when the list gets so long that only an autistic savant or someone with an eidetic memory can DM with all of that in their head, that leads to the cannonball/tissue paper problem.</p><p></p><p>6) a social contract, agreement, or whatever you'd like to call it between the player and DM as to the type of gaming experience that is desired and expected.</p><p></p><p>7) a healthy history of failures and near-failures early on in the campaign, with a few more later on to keep players aware that they CAN fail and that failure is not the end of all things (at least, not usually), thus making success its own reward.</p><p></p><p>8) a good mix of timed goals, goals that will be met regardless of time spent/wasted, and goals that will not be achieved no matter what (though the players don't know this). knowing when to subjugate the randomness of dice-rolling or the letter of the law found in rulebooks to the god of "storytelling", and when to do the opposite is a crucial DM skill.</p><p></p><p>9) there are probably plenty more elements, but the above eight are what i've found work for me. I personally prefer 2E because i've internalized the rules, gotten the system to where i can craft monsters on the fly that are usually perfectly-powered to present the level of challenge my players need, and can (and have) homebrew the hell out of it in a way that the players understand and enjoy.</p><p></p><p>edit: i guess my point here is that if you have the above elements 1-8, the 20-minute adventure day never becomes a "problem"--it take a while to get to the point where they're even possible, and then the players are "trained" to not abuse it in ways that tortures the suspension of disbelief and thus use it from time-to-time but not so regularly as to make the game stupid. and timed goals, if done right and sparingly, can create a fear in the players that any given goal might be secretly timed, thus reducing their reliance on the 20-minute adventure day.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="delchrys, post: 5798547, member: 6688672"] Well said, Jon Dahl. "Good" dnd campaigns require several elements: 1) skilled DM who knows when to adhere strictly to the rules and when to abandon them; how much to railroad and how much of a sandbox to build (extremes are terrible); who can weave the players' interests/desires/goals/motivations/backstory into the tapestry of the DM's campaign seamlessly, and who can build player trust 2) players who play to enjoy the challenge and story, who seek to be part of the story and help build the story with their individual goals and group goals in a synergy with the other players and the DM, and who don't care if the DM "breaks rules" from time-to-time (and who don't expect the DM to share when the rule-breaking occurs and when it's just luck or whatever) 3) a robust yet flexible ruleset 4) the illusion that any player character can go anywhere and try anything, with that illusion becoming reality through improv DMing and knowing when to end a session to enable development between sessions in accordance with key choices made by the players in the last session 5) a ruleset that does not eclipse the purpose of the game -- to enjoy the experience (which to me and my players is story and goal achievement at the table as a group, not to "kill as much stuff as possible and maximize damage-dealing efficiency via min/maxing and powergaming"). the ruleset should not be so expansive that players are constantly coming up with abilities and powers that, just by their intended usage are blowing through story elements and obstacles like a cannonball through tissue paper. granted, lots of options and powers (spells, special abilities, etc) are great for players and to a point, necessary, but when the list gets so long that only an autistic savant or someone with an eidetic memory can DM with all of that in their head, that leads to the cannonball/tissue paper problem. 6) a social contract, agreement, or whatever you'd like to call it between the player and DM as to the type of gaming experience that is desired and expected. 7) a healthy history of failures and near-failures early on in the campaign, with a few more later on to keep players aware that they CAN fail and that failure is not the end of all things (at least, not usually), thus making success its own reward. 8) a good mix of timed goals, goals that will be met regardless of time spent/wasted, and goals that will not be achieved no matter what (though the players don't know this). knowing when to subjugate the randomness of dice-rolling or the letter of the law found in rulebooks to the god of "storytelling", and when to do the opposite is a crucial DM skill. 9) there are probably plenty more elements, but the above eight are what i've found work for me. I personally prefer 2E because i've internalized the rules, gotten the system to where i can craft monsters on the fly that are usually perfectly-powered to present the level of challenge my players need, and can (and have) homebrew the hell out of it in a way that the players understand and enjoy. edit: i guess my point here is that if you have the above elements 1-8, the 20-minute adventure day never becomes a "problem"--it take a while to get to the point where they're even possible, and then the players are "trained" to not abuse it in ways that tortures the suspension of disbelief and thus use it from time-to-time but not so regularly as to make the game stupid. and timed goals, if done right and sparingly, can create a fear in the players that any given goal might be secretly timed, thus reducing their reliance on the 20-minute adventure day. [/QUOTE]
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Of all the complaints about 3.x systems... do you people actually allow this stuff ?
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