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Off to War - canceled
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<blockquote data-quote="Dragonwriter" data-source="post: 5642999" data-attributes="member: 54988"><p>There are plenty of folks still subscribing to that idea. I'm not one of them. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p>Random treasure is annoying to me for a few reasons. </p><p>1- It's easily abused by a crappy, controlling GM as an excuse for not giving out decent items. </p><p>2- It has a habit of showing up with stuff no one can easily use. I understand coming up with clever uses for items, but when all you have is a grey Bag of Tricks, Dust of Appearance and a Ring of Feather Falling at 10th level, there's not a lot of really useful things you can do.</p><p>And 3- selling the stuff gets you less gold, according to the book, while keeping it makes the GM feel good about giving you junk. Either way, you might as well stab yourself in the foot.</p><p></p><p>Part of this is also 3/3.5 being built with the assumption of magic items being given/received during play and those items being actually useful. They're practically required for all classes (only Cleric, Druid and Wizard can really get away without them, Sorcerer to a lesser extent), if using a lot of book-monsters.</p><p>Example: Pit Fiend vs. 20th-level Fighter with no magic items. Fighter has, at best (Half-Orc for race), +20 BAB +2 Weapon Focus Feats +7 STR. Pit Fiend has 40 AC (44 if the Fiend is smart and uses Unholy Aura all the time). Fighter hits 1/2 the time with his first attack, 1/4 second, 1/20 on third and fourth strikes. And does all of 2d6+13 per hit. Meanwhile, he's getting ripped apart by the Pit Fiend's 6 attacks, all doing high damage and auto-hitting the Fighter. Now, yes, one of the casters could do something to help... But their save DCs will be a lot lower than they normally would be, making their most-potent spells far less effective (at best, DC 26-27 without magic items), which the Pit Fiend has a better than 50% chance of making. The Rogue has a fairly poor chance to hit with +15 BAB +7 Dex +1 Weapon Focus (possibly +2 flanking). Oh, and let's not forget DR and SR.</p><p>Now with items, the Fighter will hit harder, get hit less and generally do better. Same goes for the mages. The Rogue might actually be able to hit the Pit Fiend reasonably often. Magic items are needed to face the threats generally assumed to come up in-game.</p><p>And don't even get me started on Monks... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p>There's also the matter (IMO) of using random treasure as an excuse to not put thought into the items given out. Which would you like more - the +1 weapon that fits your character's style or the +2 weapon that has no discernible use for anyone in the party? I've been playing in another campaign for over 3 years now and nearly all the treasure we've taken and used ourselves (rather than selling it) has come from NPCs the DM optimized, not random treasure. And even then, we generally keep less than half that stuff, simply because it isn't useful for anyone in the group.</p><p></p><p>So, yeah, I'm not fond of random treasure. WBL is far more palatable to me, even I don't believe it's the best solution. I'm not sold on 4E's auto-boost system either... I think it would really be best if both classes and the monsters encountered were entirely non-dependent on magic items, rather items being icing on a cake. But such a thing has not occurred with PF yet (and for obvious reasons, never will for 3.5), and I don't hold my breath for it happening. So I make use of WBL.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dragonwriter, post: 5642999, member: 54988"] There are plenty of folks still subscribing to that idea. I'm not one of them. :p Random treasure is annoying to me for a few reasons. 1- It's easily abused by a crappy, controlling GM as an excuse for not giving out decent items. 2- It has a habit of showing up with stuff no one can easily use. I understand coming up with clever uses for items, but when all you have is a grey Bag of Tricks, Dust of Appearance and a Ring of Feather Falling at 10th level, there's not a lot of really useful things you can do. And 3- selling the stuff gets you less gold, according to the book, while keeping it makes the GM feel good about giving you junk. Either way, you might as well stab yourself in the foot. Part of this is also 3/3.5 being built with the assumption of magic items being given/received during play and those items being actually useful. They're practically required for all classes (only Cleric, Druid and Wizard can really get away without them, Sorcerer to a lesser extent), if using a lot of book-monsters. Example: Pit Fiend vs. 20th-level Fighter with no magic items. Fighter has, at best (Half-Orc for race), +20 BAB +2 Weapon Focus Feats +7 STR. Pit Fiend has 40 AC (44 if the Fiend is smart and uses Unholy Aura all the time). Fighter hits 1/2 the time with his first attack, 1/4 second, 1/20 on third and fourth strikes. And does all of 2d6+13 per hit. Meanwhile, he's getting ripped apart by the Pit Fiend's 6 attacks, all doing high damage and auto-hitting the Fighter. Now, yes, one of the casters could do something to help... But their save DCs will be a lot lower than they normally would be, making their most-potent spells far less effective (at best, DC 26-27 without magic items), which the Pit Fiend has a better than 50% chance of making. The Rogue has a fairly poor chance to hit with +15 BAB +7 Dex +1 Weapon Focus (possibly +2 flanking). Oh, and let's not forget DR and SR. Now with items, the Fighter will hit harder, get hit less and generally do better. Same goes for the mages. The Rogue might actually be able to hit the Pit Fiend reasonably often. Magic items are needed to face the threats generally assumed to come up in-game. And don't even get me started on Monks... :p There's also the matter (IMO) of using random treasure as an excuse to not put thought into the items given out. Which would you like more - the +1 weapon that fits your character's style or the +2 weapon that has no discernible use for anyone in the party? I've been playing in another campaign for over 3 years now and nearly all the treasure we've taken and used ourselves (rather than selling it) has come from NPCs the DM optimized, not random treasure. And even then, we generally keep less than half that stuff, simply because it isn't useful for anyone in the group. So, yeah, I'm not fond of random treasure. WBL is far more palatable to me, even I don't believe it's the best solution. I'm not sold on 4E's auto-boost system either... I think it would really be best if both classes and the monsters encountered were entirely non-dependent on magic items, rather items being icing on a cake. But such a thing has not occurred with PF yet (and for obvious reasons, never will for 3.5), and I don't hold my breath for it happening. So I make use of WBL. [/QUOTE]
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