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Ogre - etymology
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<blockquote data-quote="gizmo33" data-source="post: 3342917" data-attributes="member: 30001"><p>Yea, I thought you meant Uigyr in place of Ugur because I had seen the same explanation for the one as the other. So I got what you said wrong - sorry about the frustration.</p><p></p><p>However, my point still stands here regardless. What you said was historically sound, in a vague sort of way <em>but does not</em> establish a connection between Ogre and Ugur (or such). Neither does the Ogre=Ygg etymology. Both the Ogre=Ugur and Ogre=Ygg etymologies have in common - both can't be true and neither makes it's case on sound linguistic principles. If either one is true, it has not been established by the given reasoning. </p><p></p><p>Folk etymologies like this are pretty easy to manufacture. I did so with "Ogre=Ogle" in the other thread. The link you mention above is another example. In any case, that legendaryquest.com link IMO is an example of how stringing together facts in a certain order can be used to create a completely false conclusion. ONE of either your etymology, or the "Ogre=Ygg" etymology has to be wrong - and yet both are historically plausible as far as I know (although I found the "Ogre=Ygg" to be less convincing)</p><p></p><p>What would be needed, in the Ogre=Ygg case for example, would be something like showing that in related languages (German, Dutch, etc.) that translation of Norse (or Icelandic or whatever) words like "Ygg" wound up having equivalencies that produced "Ogre" in those various languages. (This is where AFAIK things like "Grims Law" come in handy).</p><p></p><p>Then, it probably wouldn't hurt to take some written evidence - something to show that the Norse, and/or Germans, English, or whoever, were using words linguistically related to "Ygg" in ways that fit the definition of "Ogre". (Granted, it's a challenge when the primary written language of the period is Latin - but it's possible.)</p><p></p><p>Just googling "folk etymology" reveals tons of examples of how historical reasoning, in of itself, is completely inadequate for establishing relationships between words. It's just so easy, when you're talking about relatively few sounds in any given language, to create links between all sorts of things that had no actual link. I'm not saying that the Ogre=Uger thing is wrong, I'm just saying that the standard of proof is much higher than people think (and I think the internet exacerbates the problem). </p><p></p><p>For what it's worth, my American Heritage Dictionary gives the Orcus=Ogre etymology. However, that's unconvincing in that there are no intermediate forms cited. For example the German word for ogre is "Eiger" AFAIK and yet Eiger is even farther from Orcus whereas the relationship between Latin, English, and German wouldn't support this. Perhaps sometime ago some linguist looked at this and established the connection with reasoning that is no longer given in dictionaries (for example he could go from Latin to French and then branch to English and German). One would hope that dictionaries are not simply repeating unsubstantiated information (the way that the internet does).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="gizmo33, post: 3342917, member: 30001"] Yea, I thought you meant Uigyr in place of Ugur because I had seen the same explanation for the one as the other. So I got what you said wrong - sorry about the frustration. However, my point still stands here regardless. What you said was historically sound, in a vague sort of way [i]but does not[/i] establish a connection between Ogre and Ugur (or such). Neither does the Ogre=Ygg etymology. Both the Ogre=Ugur and Ogre=Ygg etymologies have in common - both can't be true and neither makes it's case on sound linguistic principles. If either one is true, it has not been established by the given reasoning. Folk etymologies like this are pretty easy to manufacture. I did so with "Ogre=Ogle" in the other thread. The link you mention above is another example. In any case, that legendaryquest.com link IMO is an example of how stringing together facts in a certain order can be used to create a completely false conclusion. ONE of either your etymology, or the "Ogre=Ygg" etymology has to be wrong - and yet both are historically plausible as far as I know (although I found the "Ogre=Ygg" to be less convincing) What would be needed, in the Ogre=Ygg case for example, would be something like showing that in related languages (German, Dutch, etc.) that translation of Norse (or Icelandic or whatever) words like "Ygg" wound up having equivalencies that produced "Ogre" in those various languages. (This is where AFAIK things like "Grims Law" come in handy). Then, it probably wouldn't hurt to take some written evidence - something to show that the Norse, and/or Germans, English, or whoever, were using words linguistically related to "Ygg" in ways that fit the definition of "Ogre". (Granted, it's a challenge when the primary written language of the period is Latin - but it's possible.) Just googling "folk etymology" reveals tons of examples of how historical reasoning, in of itself, is completely inadequate for establishing relationships between words. It's just so easy, when you're talking about relatively few sounds in any given language, to create links between all sorts of things that had no actual link. I'm not saying that the Ogre=Uger thing is wrong, I'm just saying that the standard of proof is much higher than people think (and I think the internet exacerbates the problem). For what it's worth, my American Heritage Dictionary gives the Orcus=Ogre etymology. However, that's unconvincing in that there are no intermediate forms cited. For example the German word for ogre is "Eiger" AFAIK and yet Eiger is even farther from Orcus whereas the relationship between Latin, English, and German wouldn't support this. Perhaps sometime ago some linguist looked at this and established the connection with reasoning that is no longer given in dictionaries (for example he could go from Latin to French and then branch to English and German). One would hope that dictionaries are not simply repeating unsubstantiated information (the way that the internet does). [/QUOTE]
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