Oh no, not again! Casters vs. Non-casters...

[kitcik]

OK, here's a thought. Feel free to shoot it down in a post or two.

Full casters get:
- spells known (i.e. in spellbook or "prayer book" et al) = swordsage's maneuvers known
- spells prepared (memorized, prayed for, etc.) = swordsage's {maneuvers readied + stances known} --> or 18 spells at 20th level
- spells are refreshed (rememorized, etc.) in 2 hours of rest
- new spells learned at each level (based on increases in swordsage's maneuvers known) cannot be of a level > 1/2 your class level rounded up (similar to the initiator level limit, but more restrictive as only counts class levels)
- at 4th level and at every even level thereafter, you can replace one of your old spells known with a different one
- you cannot know more spells of a given level than your class level divided by the spell level rounded up in all cases (so at 20th level, you cannot know more than 3 9th level spells)
- you cannot memorize more spells of a given level than your class level divided by the spell level rounded down in all cases (so at 20th level, you cannot memorize more than 2 9th level spells)

Yes, this does not fix a number of obvious FUBAR spells, so please don't respond with "Shapechange is still broken."

Thoughts?

EDIT: Yes, you can memorize multiple copies of a spell you know. So, at 20th level, it would be possible to memorize 18 Magic Missiles (and nothing else).

 

[Sekhmet]

This supposed change will see a dramatic shift at low and middle levels, I think, that would make casters much less useful than they already aren't. At higher levels, you still have access to wands, scrolls, and the various other methods of acquiring a vast (nigh unlimited) number of 1st-4th level spells, which will allow you to cover most of your utility without hindrance. However, this does a lot toward lowering the potential for casters to dominate campaigns (when their player chooses to), while still remaining relevant (with the quick "recharge" time).

May you choose your spells at your Deity's holy time/your rest period and that is it until the next time, or may you change every two hours?
Are you removing bonus spells altogether?
I think this change will see a reduced number of costly metamagics come into play. DMM will still be used, of course, but without being able to reduce the cost, most casters wouldn't use them as freely.

 

[kitcik]

This supposed change will see a dramatic shift at low and middle levels, I think, that would make casters much less useful than they already aren't. At higher levels, you still have access to wands, scrolls, and the various other methods of acquiring a vast (nigh unlimited) number of 1st-4th level spells, which will allow you to cover most of your utility without hindrance. However, this does a lot toward lowering the potential for casters to dominate campaigns (when their player chooses to), while still remaining relevant (with the quick "recharge" time).

May you choose your spells at your Deity's holy time/your rest period and that is it until the next time, or may you change every two hours?
Are you removing bonus spells altogether?
I think this change will see a reduced number of costly metamagics come into play. DMM will still be used, of course, but without being able to reduce the cost, most casters wouldn't use them as freely.

All good points. Obviously, I was just putting pen to paper without fully thinking through the details.

I am ok with the wands, etc. "Spells known" is limited, so the varety of crafting available will also be limited - and of course any character with UMD can buy stuff.

I imagined that you would be able to choose spells whenever you recharge (i.e. every two hours). I also imagined that bonus spells would be removed, although I could see giving a bonus to spells known (but not spells prepared).

I had NOT intended to kill the utility of casters at low level - something to think about. Maybe the recharge could be based on minutes per spell level or something.

 

[Sekhmet]

Minutes/spell level sounds good. If it's 10/level, low level casters will be more effective than they currently are, and higher level casters won't be affected too much by the change.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Am I understanding that you are using Tome of Battle Maneuvers as the framework for caster spells?

Interesting.

 

[kitcik]

Am I understanding that you are using Tome of Battle Maneuvers as the framework for caster spells?

Interesting.

The best engineer is a reverse engineer.

 

[Nezkrul]

you could also try using the spell point variant, just need to transplant psion as sorcerer, and from that figure out how many power points a wizard would get per day, but I do see what you were going for with this idea.