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Old school/new school definitions -- meaningless?
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<blockquote data-quote="trollwad" data-source="post: 2999659" data-attributes="member: 19187"><p>Ah I can see the deconstructionists trying to extend their pernicious influence into fantasy gaming!</p><p></p><p>Words have meaning even if their nuances can blur into each other at the edges particularly to people of the same "sect" or generation. Words can mean the opposite thing to people of different sects or generations (e.g. try using the word 'justice' around an ardent muslim from the Middle East who is in his 20s, a motivated secular liberal american who grew up in the 1960s and a devout mormon american who grew up under Reagan). As an example of shared meaning in a genre, if I say the genre of "hair metal bands" most people who were conscious in the 80s will instantly share some of the same mental associations with me. We might debate to what extent band x was a member of that genre, but that one tiny three word snippet instantly takes the universe of bands and disqualifies 95% as not hair metal and 2% as definite hair metal with some grey area in between. old school vs. new school is very similar imho. </p><p></p><p>Per Grodogs point, I generally consider the purest old school to be approximately the period in which Gygax was at TSR and specifically products produced by him, Rob Kuntz, Len Lakofka and the UK team then or currently. Erik Mona writes new school products but is clearly influenced by the old school so he is a new school guy who frequently pays homage to the old school.</p><p></p><p>Off the top of my head, there are at least six dimensions to "old schoolness": 1) playing a little fast and easy with the rules with the DM being clearly in charge, 2) less railroading (except perhaps in modules that were tournament modules), 3) a willingness by the dm to kill PCs (I note at the personal level that none of my characters have ever died in 3e and 3e doesnt FEEL as dangerous), 4) leaving open area in the modules for the dm to expand upon (eg Vault of the Drow). The fifth dimension is the fantasy influences (look at the suggested reading in the 1e dmg!): old school is influenced by Robert E Howard, Tolkien, Lovecraft and Fritz Lieber while new school is more influenced by the Dragonlance books, RA Salvatore, and computer video games. Read a Howard Conan story (say Red Nails or Phoenix on the Sword) and read an RA Salvatore book back to back some time! The sixth dimension is that old school products are written for adults who like to read but often chaotic, the new school is soul less, if often mechanically far superior. For example, sit with the 1e dmg and the 3.5 dmg side by side some time. Read at random in each. The 1e dmg reads like a novel with adult words and is hilarious in places (anyone remember the table where you might encounter a brazen strumpet!). The 3.5e dmg reads like an Idiot's Guide to Microsoft Excel. I still have no idea how Gygax really meant for 1e initiative to work whereas 3.5e initiative is clear and easy. I've never meant anyone who actually wants to read a 3.5 rulebook; by contrast, the 1e dmg is still an inspirational classic.</p><p></p><p>Here is a quote from the Gygax thread on enworld with a comment by a gamer and a response from Gygax (the creator of 'Old School') to illustrate the first point:</p><p></p><p>"I wish the current edition (3e) taught that instead of painstakingly measuring every gold piece of value and making sure it is in the "right range" for a given level of the party.</p><p></p><p>GAWD!!</p><p></p><p>Sorry! I'm still adjusting to regaining my DMing freedom now that I have "quit" 3E. </p><p></p><p>Revel in the newly regained liberty, amigo! Play the way the game form was designed to be played"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="trollwad, post: 2999659, member: 19187"] Ah I can see the deconstructionists trying to extend their pernicious influence into fantasy gaming! Words have meaning even if their nuances can blur into each other at the edges particularly to people of the same "sect" or generation. Words can mean the opposite thing to people of different sects or generations (e.g. try using the word 'justice' around an ardent muslim from the Middle East who is in his 20s, a motivated secular liberal american who grew up in the 1960s and a devout mormon american who grew up under Reagan). As an example of shared meaning in a genre, if I say the genre of "hair metal bands" most people who were conscious in the 80s will instantly share some of the same mental associations with me. We might debate to what extent band x was a member of that genre, but that one tiny three word snippet instantly takes the universe of bands and disqualifies 95% as not hair metal and 2% as definite hair metal with some grey area in between. old school vs. new school is very similar imho. Per Grodogs point, I generally consider the purest old school to be approximately the period in which Gygax was at TSR and specifically products produced by him, Rob Kuntz, Len Lakofka and the UK team then or currently. Erik Mona writes new school products but is clearly influenced by the old school so he is a new school guy who frequently pays homage to the old school. Off the top of my head, there are at least six dimensions to "old schoolness": 1) playing a little fast and easy with the rules with the DM being clearly in charge, 2) less railroading (except perhaps in modules that were tournament modules), 3) a willingness by the dm to kill PCs (I note at the personal level that none of my characters have ever died in 3e and 3e doesnt FEEL as dangerous), 4) leaving open area in the modules for the dm to expand upon (eg Vault of the Drow). The fifth dimension is the fantasy influences (look at the suggested reading in the 1e dmg!): old school is influenced by Robert E Howard, Tolkien, Lovecraft and Fritz Lieber while new school is more influenced by the Dragonlance books, RA Salvatore, and computer video games. Read a Howard Conan story (say Red Nails or Phoenix on the Sword) and read an RA Salvatore book back to back some time! The sixth dimension is that old school products are written for adults who like to read but often chaotic, the new school is soul less, if often mechanically far superior. For example, sit with the 1e dmg and the 3.5 dmg side by side some time. Read at random in each. The 1e dmg reads like a novel with adult words and is hilarious in places (anyone remember the table where you might encounter a brazen strumpet!). The 3.5e dmg reads like an Idiot's Guide to Microsoft Excel. I still have no idea how Gygax really meant for 1e initiative to work whereas 3.5e initiative is clear and easy. I've never meant anyone who actually wants to read a 3.5 rulebook; by contrast, the 1e dmg is still an inspirational classic. Here is a quote from the Gygax thread on enworld with a comment by a gamer and a response from Gygax (the creator of 'Old School') to illustrate the first point: "I wish the current edition (3e) taught that instead of painstakingly measuring every gold piece of value and making sure it is in the "right range" for a given level of the party. GAWD!! Sorry! I'm still adjusting to regaining my DMing freedom now that I have "quit" 3E. Revel in the newly regained liberty, amigo! Play the way the game form was designed to be played" [/QUOTE]
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