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Old School : Tucker's Kobolds and Trained Jellies
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<blockquote data-quote="Zustiur" data-source="post: 5847021" data-attributes="member: 1544"><p>Sadly yes. I stick with that group because the role play outside of combat is so good.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Thanks for the clarification.</p><p>I think it's the number of exceptions in 4E that spoil it really. Looking at the combat chapter on its own - no problem. Throw in thousands of different powers... yuck. I'm finding it hard to really explain what it is about 4E that makes me hate it so much. There are parts that I like, and parts that I don't. I could really enjoy it as a purely tactical game with no real emphasis on role play. But as a mix between roleplay and tactics, it just doesn't sit well with me. Again, that's partly a group thing. If I had a group of tacticians, I could really get into the combat. Instead I have a group of role players, stuck in an edition which falls too easily into combat grind.</p><p></p><p>Bringing this back on topic though; I could totally enjoy encountering something like Tucker's kobolds in 4E. It's part of what I feel is lacking. There's too much emphasis on balance for my liking. I want to run level 10 characters against level 1 monsters sometimes, not against level 10 kobolds... Scaling monsters is a great mechanic, but it's overused to the point where every combat feels the same.</p><p></p><p>Playstyle is the issue here. To be truly successful in its goal, 5E needs to be able to handle Tucker's kobolds. Now, any DM can put this kind of element into any edition. The question is how easy is it? Well there's no difficulty at all, except that of perception. There is nothing to stop you throwing level 1 monsters at level 10 characters in 4E, except that the game is designed to avoid those situations. Monster scaling, the encounter building guidelines, the overall emphasis on balance. All of these things lead DMs to think 'Oh, I can't do that, it wouldn't be balanced'. </p><p></p><p>I think ultimately this old school vs new school thing is about the different types of challenge you can encounter. New school (in my opinion...) is about balance above everything else. You can't throw a dragon at level 1 characters unless they have a reasonable chance of killing it. You can't throw lesser creatures at level 10s unless there's a suitable challenge level to the combat. Older editions put so much less emphasis on this. My memory of 2E is hazy, but I don't recall any guidelines whatsoever which pushed you to use monsters of a certain difficulty level. </p><p></p><p>I'm sitting here with my books in arms reach, so let's have a look.</p><p>2E DMG has 10 pages on Encounters. *flick flick flick* Okay, the closest thing I found to Challenge Rating (CR) or Encounter Level (EL) is the guideline for building encounter tables where it links monster experience values to dungeon levels. That's it. That's the closest thing 2E DMG has to balance guidelines. </p><p>Now let's look at 4E DMG: 3 chapters comprising of 53 pages. The first chapter is more about how to run a combat than anything else. The second is about building combat encounters. An entire chapter dedicated to <em>how encounters should be built.</em> 4 entire pages of this chapter are guidelines for how to set the EL and ensure that everything provides just the right amount of challenge.</p><p></p><p>Old DMs will take this or leave it, as suits their personal play style. Newer DMs will follow it unquestioningly (yes, there's always exceptions). Everyone is going to have their own definition of old school and new school, but for me, that's it right there. Old school focussed more on characters being in a dangerous world. How they interacted with that world determined if they lived or they died. New school ensures that that world always provides them with a suitable chance of living, death is rarely an option.</p><p></p><p>This actually brings up one of the things that stunned me most about 4E. When I started, about a third of the way through our first adventure, my character got killed. "Fair enough", I thought. "Time to start building a new one". Less than half an hour later my character has been raised from the dead because the level 1 party already had enough gold to pay for that. </p><p></p><p>Compare that with the tales I hear of 1E and BECMI. 'Don't bother naming your character until you reach at least level 4'.</p><p></p><p>Old school is unforgiving. New school is more forgiving. Sometimes old school went too far. Sometimes new school goes too far.</p><p></p><p>I'd like to see 5E put emphasis on something a bit more in the middle.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zustiur, post: 5847021, member: 1544"] Sadly yes. I stick with that group because the role play outside of combat is so good. Thanks for the clarification. I think it's the number of exceptions in 4E that spoil it really. Looking at the combat chapter on its own - no problem. Throw in thousands of different powers... yuck. I'm finding it hard to really explain what it is about 4E that makes me hate it so much. There are parts that I like, and parts that I don't. I could really enjoy it as a purely tactical game with no real emphasis on role play. But as a mix between roleplay and tactics, it just doesn't sit well with me. Again, that's partly a group thing. If I had a group of tacticians, I could really get into the combat. Instead I have a group of role players, stuck in an edition which falls too easily into combat grind. Bringing this back on topic though; I could totally enjoy encountering something like Tucker's kobolds in 4E. It's part of what I feel is lacking. There's too much emphasis on balance for my liking. I want to run level 10 characters against level 1 monsters sometimes, not against level 10 kobolds... Scaling monsters is a great mechanic, but it's overused to the point where every combat feels the same. Playstyle is the issue here. To be truly successful in its goal, 5E needs to be able to handle Tucker's kobolds. Now, any DM can put this kind of element into any edition. The question is how easy is it? Well there's no difficulty at all, except that of perception. There is nothing to stop you throwing level 1 monsters at level 10 characters in 4E, except that the game is designed to avoid those situations. Monster scaling, the encounter building guidelines, the overall emphasis on balance. All of these things lead DMs to think 'Oh, I can't do that, it wouldn't be balanced'. I think ultimately this old school vs new school thing is about the different types of challenge you can encounter. New school (in my opinion...) is about balance above everything else. You can't throw a dragon at level 1 characters unless they have a reasonable chance of killing it. You can't throw lesser creatures at level 10s unless there's a suitable challenge level to the combat. Older editions put so much less emphasis on this. My memory of 2E is hazy, but I don't recall any guidelines whatsoever which pushed you to use monsters of a certain difficulty level. I'm sitting here with my books in arms reach, so let's have a look. 2E DMG has 10 pages on Encounters. *flick flick flick* Okay, the closest thing I found to Challenge Rating (CR) or Encounter Level (EL) is the guideline for building encounter tables where it links monster experience values to dungeon levels. That's it. That's the closest thing 2E DMG has to balance guidelines. Now let's look at 4E DMG: 3 chapters comprising of 53 pages. The first chapter is more about how to run a combat than anything else. The second is about building combat encounters. An entire chapter dedicated to [I]how encounters should be built.[/I] 4 entire pages of this chapter are guidelines for how to set the EL and ensure that everything provides just the right amount of challenge. Old DMs will take this or leave it, as suits their personal play style. Newer DMs will follow it unquestioningly (yes, there's always exceptions). Everyone is going to have their own definition of old school and new school, but for me, that's it right there. Old school focussed more on characters being in a dangerous world. How they interacted with that world determined if they lived or they died. New school ensures that that world always provides them with a suitable chance of living, death is rarely an option. This actually brings up one of the things that stunned me most about 4E. When I started, about a third of the way through our first adventure, my character got killed. "Fair enough", I thought. "Time to start building a new one". Less than half an hour later my character has been raised from the dead because the level 1 party already had enough gold to pay for that. Compare that with the tales I hear of 1E and BECMI. 'Don't bother naming your character until you reach at least level 4'. Old school is unforgiving. New school is more forgiving. Sometimes old school went too far. Sometimes new school goes too far. I'd like to see 5E put emphasis on something a bit more in the middle. [/QUOTE]
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