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On Skilled Play: D&D as a Game
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<blockquote data-quote="Pauper" data-source="post: 8274637" data-attributes="member: 17607"><p>I'm leery of the concept of 'skilled play' as described here, because I think RPGs have evolved past their initial Gygaxian origins and the best ones are no longer about what those old-school games focused on.</p><p></p><p>It's certainly possible to incorporate win conditions into RPG play; it was done in the olden days in tournament play (where the core win condition was frequently 'how far into the dungeon did you get in the allotted time?'), and you could still do a game like that today -- I distinctly remember doing Delves at GenCon during Fourth Edition days where the goal was to get through a three-encounter dungeon in an hour, and you got tokens based on how far you got through that dungeon that you could cash in for prizes. In this sense, you could argue that 'skilled play' is the trait that gets you most consistently to the end of the Delve. But even then, what counts as 'skilled play' changes based on the conditions of the Delve -- if all the PCs are pre-generated, for example, then [USER=7017304]jmartkdr2[/USER]'s definition of player skill doesn't apply, or applies only peripherally (in the sense that you could arguably use a skill in building characters to identify the most efficiently-built pre-gen and play that exclusively).</p><p></p><p>Most games are not Delves, though, and as noted in the various SOP-stories, trying to impose such a condition on a game tends to warp it in directions that take it away from being what I'd consider an RPG. Let me give you another example:</p><p></p><p>A fairly common 'win condition' for exploring dungeons back in the day was the goal of liberating all the treasure that the DM had secreted in the dungeon when designing it. It makes sense why PCs would want to do this -- heading into dungeons in search of treasure was pretty much the point of the game back then -- but as soon as the DM accepts this as a competition, with the players 'winning' if they find all the loot and the DM 'winning' if significant caches of loot remain undiscovered, then the arms race begins. The DM hides treasures in secret compartments, in secret treasure rooms, behind impassable obstacles, in rooms at the end of miles-long passages that can only be traversed by creatures the size of mice, on the Ethereal plane, in other extra-dimensional spaces. Eventually you get to the point where you can only find the treasure by passing through the dimensional portal that can only be reached if you're swallowed whole by the tarrasque.</p><p></p><p>I could see someone saying 'yes, exactly, that's what I'm talking about -- player skill is the players learning how to defeat their DM's plans to hide treasure from them and extract maximum loot from every dungeon'. But what does this mean for campaigns that don't do this? Are those players somehow 'less skilled' because they don't have to jump through all the hoops that the old-school DM requires of his players? Is a game where SOP-style door opening tactics aren't required less satisfying than one that does?</p><p></p><p>Is a game where you don't have to tap ahead of you with a ten-foot pole when walking down every dungeon passage, somehow a game where 'player skill' isn't as important? Does this mean that games that focuses more heavily on 'player skill' are necessarily less fun?</p><p></p><p>My feeling is that players have developed the concept of 'player skill' as a justification for going through these kinds of hoops, to make them feel as if they're doing something well by doing these things that don't actually need to be done at all to play a satisfying and engaging RPG. And while I can accept that there are people who recall that style of old-school play who either miss it in modern play or deliberately choose to play older games (like OSR games) that feature it, it doesn't surprise me that this style of play has been deliberately de-emphasized in modern RPGs to help them appeal to a larger cross-section of potential RPG players.</p><p></p><p>Based on the above, and taking those implications to their logical conclusions, I say that 'skilled play' in the Gygaxian sense doesn't really exist. It's just your DM being a dick and then, when you complain about it, responding with 'git gud' <em>and you end up agreeing with him</em>.</p><p></p><p>--</p><p>Pauper</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pauper, post: 8274637, member: 17607"] I'm leery of the concept of 'skilled play' as described here, because I think RPGs have evolved past their initial Gygaxian origins and the best ones are no longer about what those old-school games focused on. It's certainly possible to incorporate win conditions into RPG play; it was done in the olden days in tournament play (where the core win condition was frequently 'how far into the dungeon did you get in the allotted time?'), and you could still do a game like that today -- I distinctly remember doing Delves at GenCon during Fourth Edition days where the goal was to get through a three-encounter dungeon in an hour, and you got tokens based on how far you got through that dungeon that you could cash in for prizes. In this sense, you could argue that 'skilled play' is the trait that gets you most consistently to the end of the Delve. But even then, what counts as 'skilled play' changes based on the conditions of the Delve -- if all the PCs are pre-generated, for example, then [USER=7017304]jmartkdr2[/USER]'s definition of player skill doesn't apply, or applies only peripherally (in the sense that you could arguably use a skill in building characters to identify the most efficiently-built pre-gen and play that exclusively). Most games are not Delves, though, and as noted in the various SOP-stories, trying to impose such a condition on a game tends to warp it in directions that take it away from being what I'd consider an RPG. Let me give you another example: A fairly common 'win condition' for exploring dungeons back in the day was the goal of liberating all the treasure that the DM had secreted in the dungeon when designing it. It makes sense why PCs would want to do this -- heading into dungeons in search of treasure was pretty much the point of the game back then -- but as soon as the DM accepts this as a competition, with the players 'winning' if they find all the loot and the DM 'winning' if significant caches of loot remain undiscovered, then the arms race begins. The DM hides treasures in secret compartments, in secret treasure rooms, behind impassable obstacles, in rooms at the end of miles-long passages that can only be traversed by creatures the size of mice, on the Ethereal plane, in other extra-dimensional spaces. Eventually you get to the point where you can only find the treasure by passing through the dimensional portal that can only be reached if you're swallowed whole by the tarrasque. I could see someone saying 'yes, exactly, that's what I'm talking about -- player skill is the players learning how to defeat their DM's plans to hide treasure from them and extract maximum loot from every dungeon'. But what does this mean for campaigns that don't do this? Are those players somehow 'less skilled' because they don't have to jump through all the hoops that the old-school DM requires of his players? Is a game where SOP-style door opening tactics aren't required less satisfying than one that does? Is a game where you don't have to tap ahead of you with a ten-foot pole when walking down every dungeon passage, somehow a game where 'player skill' isn't as important? Does this mean that games that focuses more heavily on 'player skill' are necessarily less fun? My feeling is that players have developed the concept of 'player skill' as a justification for going through these kinds of hoops, to make them feel as if they're doing something well by doing these things that don't actually need to be done at all to play a satisfying and engaging RPG. And while I can accept that there are people who recall that style of old-school play who either miss it in modern play or deliberately choose to play older games (like OSR games) that feature it, it doesn't surprise me that this style of play has been deliberately de-emphasized in modern RPGs to help them appeal to a larger cross-section of potential RPG players. Based on the above, and taking those implications to their logical conclusions, I say that 'skilled play' in the Gygaxian sense doesn't really exist. It's just your DM being a dick and then, when you complain about it, responding with 'git gud' [I]and you end up agreeing with him[/I]. -- Pauper [/QUOTE]
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