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On Skilled Play: D&D as a Game
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8295025" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I've finally caught up on this thread; and I'll finish my battery of replies with this one.</p><p></p><p>First, prelude: Rolemaster (by default, at least) uses spell points rather than spell memorisation, and so allows use of "go to" spells multiple times. But it uses a "list" system for spell acquisition (lists are things like Fire Law, Detecting Ways, etc which have spells of various levels thematically connected as indicated by the name of the list). So casters have both more and less flexibility than a classic D&D caster. Optimising spell point usage, and getting bang for your buck out of the range of effects you have available, is a real thing.</p><p></p><p>Second, anecdote: I mentioned upthread that one of the regulars in my group (no longer a regular since he moved to the UK circa a decade ago) was an Australasian MtG champion. This group started over 30 years ago as a RM group. About a year into the group's life (and so about 30 years ago) a guy that I had played a lot of D&D with in the 80s was able to join one of our RM sessions, in which the now-in-the-UK regular was playing a spell caster. I remember, after the session, that my D&D friend commented about the regular, "A_________ is really good at playing a magic-user". Now my D&D friend wasn't a theorist, nor a spreadsheet-wielding optimiser; at that time his work was as a casual labourer and bouncer. He was just a guy who'd played a fair bit of D&D, and who - even in the changed mechanical environment of Rolemaster - could recognise skilful play when he saw it.</p><p></p><p>Third, conclusion: I readily accept your proposition that 5e D&D doesn't open up the same sort of scope for skilled play in this respect as does classic D&D or (as observed by my D&D friend 30 years ago) Rolemaster. I don't know where Dungeon World would fall into this matrix of evaluation. I think that Burning Wheel retains, from its FRPG heritage, some elements of "clever use of spells" but not under the same sorts of constraints or optimisation parameters as classic D&D or RM.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8295025, member: 42582"] I've finally caught up on this thread; and I'll finish my battery of replies with this one. First, prelude: Rolemaster (by default, at least) uses spell points rather than spell memorisation, and so allows use of "go to" spells multiple times. But it uses a "list" system for spell acquisition (lists are things like Fire Law, Detecting Ways, etc which have spells of various levels thematically connected as indicated by the name of the list). So casters have both more and less flexibility than a classic D&D caster. Optimising spell point usage, and getting bang for your buck out of the range of effects you have available, is a real thing. Second, anecdote: I mentioned upthread that one of the regulars in my group (no longer a regular since he moved to the UK circa a decade ago) was an Australasian MtG champion. This group started over 30 years ago as a RM group. About a year into the group's life (and so about 30 years ago) a guy that I had played a lot of D&D with in the 80s was able to join one of our RM sessions, in which the now-in-the-UK regular was playing a spell caster. I remember, after the session, that my D&D friend commented about the regular, "A_________ is really good at playing a magic-user". Now my D&D friend wasn't a theorist, nor a spreadsheet-wielding optimiser; at that time his work was as a casual labourer and bouncer. He was just a guy who'd played a fair bit of D&D, and who - even in the changed mechanical environment of Rolemaster - could recognise skilful play when he saw it. Third, conclusion: I readily accept your proposition that 5e D&D doesn't open up the same sort of scope for skilled play in this respect as does classic D&D or (as observed by my D&D friend 30 years ago) Rolemaster. I don't know where Dungeon World would fall into this matrix of evaluation. I think that Burning Wheel retains, from its FRPG heritage, some elements of "clever use of spells" but not under the same sorts of constraints or optimisation parameters as classic D&D or RM. [/QUOTE]
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