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<blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 8295174" data-attributes="member: 6801252"><p>I've actually been debating it myself, whether the expansion of goals on a thematic basis can itself serve as a constraint to produce a need for more skillful play, I think the reason it normally doesn't is because thematic coherence is normally interpreted as (and I apologize because this term isn't one I would use if not for the existing context of it) "<a href="http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win" target="_blank">Scrub Mentality</a>" </p><p></p><p>I think that specifically, in a traditional context, games leave thematic coherence and character motivation almost entirely to the players discretion (save for alignment and other mechanics that have classically been interpreted by players as being in the way of character thematic as much as reinforcing them) which meant that dismissing it as a constraint would free one up to make more tactical decisions, which in turn creates the sense that its an entirely self-imposed limitation, like not using a legal maneuver in a fighting game. Its a restriction that doesn't exist in the ruleset, and stops you from making decisions that are legal moves in the ruleset toward your more 'gamist' goals (experience, treasure, defeated foes, eventual construction of your stronghold.) </p><p></p><p>In other words, because thematic coherence concerning maintenance of character thematics at odds with optimal decision making for the 'gamist' objectives is not an explicit 'agenda' of play for the players, it isn't skilled play until we sit down and come to a consensus that character thematic is a goal as important or more important as the original object it would be at odds with. To put it bluntly, its why you wouldn't question the in-universe morality of a plan that would lead to severe loss of life in a strategy game so long as you were confident that the plan would yield final victory. Its why <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/6g5hp8/karen_was_wrong_casual_ethics_and_competitive/" target="_blank">competive pokemon</a> players write posts like these to insulate the competitive integrity of their 'metagame' (not be confused with 'playing pokemon' as a whole) from the sentimentality a player might absorb from the story of the RPGs (which really, are ludonarratively dissonant and only works because of how undemanding the majority of the PvE content is.) </p><p></p><p>Notably this isn't an endorsement of that viewpoint, because obviously, if we sit down and say that we want thematic coherence to be a part of the skilled alchemy of the game, then it just <em>is. </em>At best you could argue about its desirability in a competitive environment by discussing its ramifications, and then use that to include or exclude it, much like <a href="https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/" target="_blank">this post</a> does for pokemon.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The-Magic-Sword, post: 8295174, member: 6801252"] I've actually been debating it myself, whether the expansion of goals on a thematic basis can itself serve as a constraint to produce a need for more skillful play, I think the reason it normally doesn't is because thematic coherence is normally interpreted as (and I apologize because this term isn't one I would use if not for the existing context of it) "[URL='http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win']Scrub Mentality[/URL]" I think that specifically, in a traditional context, games leave thematic coherence and character motivation almost entirely to the players discretion (save for alignment and other mechanics that have classically been interpreted by players as being in the way of character thematic as much as reinforcing them) which meant that dismissing it as a constraint would free one up to make more tactical decisions, which in turn creates the sense that its an entirely self-imposed limitation, like not using a legal maneuver in a fighting game. Its a restriction that doesn't exist in the ruleset, and stops you from making decisions that are legal moves in the ruleset toward your more 'gamist' goals (experience, treasure, defeated foes, eventual construction of your stronghold.) In other words, because thematic coherence concerning maintenance of character thematics at odds with optimal decision making for the 'gamist' objectives is not an explicit 'agenda' of play for the players, it isn't skilled play until we sit down and come to a consensus that character thematic is a goal as important or more important as the original object it would be at odds with. To put it bluntly, its why you wouldn't question the in-universe morality of a plan that would lead to severe loss of life in a strategy game so long as you were confident that the plan would yield final victory. Its why [URL='https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/6g5hp8/karen_was_wrong_casual_ethics_and_competitive/']competive pokemon[/URL] players write posts like these to insulate the competitive integrity of their 'metagame' (not be confused with 'playing pokemon' as a whole) from the sentimentality a player might absorb from the story of the RPGs (which really, are ludonarratively dissonant and only works because of how undemanding the majority of the PvE content is.) Notably this isn't an endorsement of that viewpoint, because obviously, if we sit down and say that we want thematic coherence to be a part of the skilled alchemy of the game, then it just [I]is. [/I]At best you could argue about its desirability in a competitive environment by discussing its ramifications, and then use that to include or exclude it, much like [URL='https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/']this post[/URL] does for pokemon. [/QUOTE]
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