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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8296040" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Right, I didn't delve into that. You could cover in terms of what [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] calls 'win cons', which I guess is pretty much exactly what you're saying. If my hypothetical 'Middle Earth' game's win cons were "Defeat Sauron Completely" then, consistent with the fiction, the ONLY win is achieved by going to the Samath Naur and casting it in. Thus Sam's action of becoming a 'Dark Hobbit Lord' would be merely delaying defeat, at best.</p><p></p><p>Definitely. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Right, Sam certainly was acting on a belief, though we can speculate on the degree to which the author 'put his thumb upon the balance'. Given that these are not real people, we cannot really measure that, and the same with PCs. Of course in BW you have a set of mechanically defined and precise beliefs to leverage. I was wondering if you could make a game where you had a sort of choice, to increase your 'concordance with fate' essentially, or to serve your more material interests. You could ALMOST create a game like that with D&D, but Alignment would have to be rewritten.</p><p></p><p>Yeah, though I think they can be coherent with each other. Obviously some of my three approaches are more relevant for some games than for others. As-written classic D&D seems to only really cater to 'gamist', though it allows for a bit of the others (and maybe the Paladin demands a 'dramatist' stance, which causes lots of havoc in play).</p><p></p><p>This sounds pretty much right, yes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8296040, member: 82106"] Right, I didn't delve into that. You could cover in terms of what [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] calls 'win cons', which I guess is pretty much exactly what you're saying. If my hypothetical 'Middle Earth' game's win cons were "Defeat Sauron Completely" then, consistent with the fiction, the ONLY win is achieved by going to the Samath Naur and casting it in. Thus Sam's action of becoming a 'Dark Hobbit Lord' would be merely delaying defeat, at best. Definitely. :) Right, Sam certainly was acting on a belief, though we can speculate on the degree to which the author 'put his thumb upon the balance'. Given that these are not real people, we cannot really measure that, and the same with PCs. Of course in BW you have a set of mechanically defined and precise beliefs to leverage. I was wondering if you could make a game where you had a sort of choice, to increase your 'concordance with fate' essentially, or to serve your more material interests. You could ALMOST create a game like that with D&D, but Alignment would have to be rewritten. Yeah, though I think they can be coherent with each other. Obviously some of my three approaches are more relevant for some games than for others. As-written classic D&D seems to only really cater to 'gamist', though it allows for a bit of the others (and maybe the Paladin demands a 'dramatist' stance, which causes lots of havoc in play). This sounds pretty much right, yes. [/QUOTE]
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